tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-68327275018045829.post2519153364866604377..comments2023-10-30T08:04:07.321-06:00Comments on Demonpuppy's Wicked Awesome Art Blog: This Sunday, Ice Giants and the TRUTH comes out!Bretthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12168403050889835504noreply@blogger.comBlogger45125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-68327275018045829.post-48365175469978492222011-07-09T20:19:09.184-06:002011-07-09T20:19:09.184-06:00M.O.R.
Actually that's not the same thing. Pe...M.O.R.<br /><br />Actually that's not the same thing. People have done horrible things in the name or Christianity, but just because some of those guys are atheists, doesn't mean what they did was done in the name of Atheism. It isn't a belief system. I hope that makes sense.<br /><br />Communism is interesting, sort of like the Pharrohs of Egypt. The government takes the place of religion with the leader as the almost Godlike ruler. <br /><br />And I do agree even Atheists can be 'butt munchers' as can anyone;) <br /><br />Best,<br /><br />BrettBretthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12168403050889835504noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-68327275018045829.post-21310553934897033502011-07-09T16:35:59.625-06:002011-07-09T16:35:59.625-06:00Ridenar, you were doing well until the 'atheis...Ridenar, you were doing well until the 'atheist bomber, atheist tyrant' etc.<br /><br />What about Slobodan Milosevic, or Kim Jung Il, or Mao Zedong, or Pol Pot?<br />All atheists, all tyrants.<br /><br />What I am saying there is, give certain people power or a movement that attracts people, and they will abuse it to no ends. If they have some form of inferiority complex, then boy howdy, will they abuse the hell out of it. <br /><br />There are butt munchers in every walk of life, not just religion.<br /><br />Going outside of religion, look at all the jerks in sport, or music.M.O.Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18199507518491506178noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-68327275018045829.post-37083625550507753762011-07-09T05:10:21.716-06:002011-07-09T05:10:21.716-06:00The way I see it human existence can be seen as a ...The way I see it human existence can be seen as a large partially read book, each page representing 1000 years. Religion reads the top 2-3 pages and is done, satisfied, decision made, mind closed... reads no further. Science is going to read the whole book top to bottom, bottom to top....<br />Ask a human from 5, 10 or 15 thousand years about god, and he'll point at the sun. For 99% of our existence we have been elemental worshipers. Things that affect us that we can’t control we make up an answer for because we need to understand. Religion is based on faith. Faith is believing what you want, and ignoring the absence of any proof. It’s an unfortunate trait that humans are susceptible to and one of our greatest weaknesses.<br />To explain death away as going to a ‘better place’ is arrogance of the highest order. We are so very important we cannot simply stop right? Wrong. In the scope of things we aren’t important at all. The most powerful force in the universe is a star, and even stars die.<br />I consider myself a realist. Atheist doesn’t cut it; I don’t believe anything about the universe is founded on supernatural elements. The very nature of it is chaos. If you look to the bible for answers about the nature of the universe you won’t find any of course, because the bible is limited to the knowledge of the men at the time it was written. They had no sense of the universe and cosmos as we now understand it.<br />Religious delusion is fine as long as it’s kept to one’s self. Once these ‘supernaturalists’ start waging war, forcing legislation it becomes their narrow opinion enforced with might.<br />Show me the atheist suicide bomber, atheist tyrant, atheist invader? Atheists (Realists) are the most peaceful people on earth.<br />Ask me for examples of ethnic (in reality Religious..) cleansing, religious war, religious hatred, discrimination, double standards, contradiction and I’ll ask how long have you got?ridenarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11377068077816572933noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-68327275018045829.post-14813164610956968972011-07-05T18:32:47.149-06:002011-07-05T18:32:47.149-06:00Frankly I'm a little tired and lacking in time...Frankly I'm a little tired and lacking in time for the constant paper chase Steve.You constantly shrug off and poo poo ANYTHING Brett and I show you as being not valid or laughable.You talk about unbiased info while dismissing my views on the Prodigal story and then can ask me to listen to a SERMON on it and say NO!this is what it REALLY means? How about YOU provide some of this concrete evidence for the existence of your Jesus and your God that you always claim exists.<br />Show me your <i>"non-biased examination of history or a Christian view of history"</i><br />Come on Steve,here's your chance.Wow me,Show me something different that hasn't been done or thought of a million times over by a million different faiths.Show me anything of the sort and you have my word that I will read it over carefully and give it my utmost attention and I'm sure Brett would be interested as well.Fatboy73https://www.blogger.com/profile/04770482415512154108noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-68327275018045829.post-32396422388073405172011-07-02T09:08:57.216-06:002011-07-02T09:08:57.216-06:00"I don’t know how to be charitable about the ..."I don’t know how to be charitable about the quality of the research those sites contained. Most of the citations are from anti-Christian authors, not intellectually unbiased historians. I guess if you weren’t looking for the truth and really just wanted to bolster your own argument you could do worse."<br /><br /><br />BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Oh that you miss the irony is delicious... almost as good as baby!<br /><br />Best!<br /><br />BrettBretthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12168403050889835504noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-68327275018045829.post-53135650954333952392011-07-01T09:38:48.352-06:002011-07-01T09:38:48.352-06:00http://www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm
http://www.i4m....http://www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm<br />http://www.i4m.com/think/bible/historical_jesus.htm<br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_mythology<br /><br />Hmmm…So I’ve read through the three sources you have given. I don’t know how to be charitable about the quality of the research those sites contained. Most of the citations are from anti-Christian authors, not intellectually unbiased historians. I guess if you weren’t looking for the truth and really just wanted to bolster your own argument you could do worse. I mean they do get some facts right, but this isn’t scholarly research. It is surprising that you have been in the church for twenty years and these arguments seem appealing to you. Most of these accounts are outdated, like no archeological evidence for Nazareth, but even aside from recent archeological discoveries, most of these critiques have been answered with far better documentation time and time again. There seems to be a prevailing school of thought that Christians are stupid simpletons with no intellectual discernment, and then we are treated to this type of cut and paste silliness. It is like trying to read a message written on a crumpled up piece of wet toilet paper, it disintegrates at the littlest attempt to examine. The arguments are half truths and plausible if you accept them at face value, and it is funny to see how much these three sources plagiarize each other-showing it isn’t original research just recopying someone else’s list, but I guess I’m really curious why these articles have explanatory power for you? Why are they compelling, say when put them next to a non-biased examination of history or a Christian view of history? Often what I find is someone has a problem with the morality of God or the idea of submitting and worshipping God, so they try to cobble together an intellectual argument to keep them from considering the hard truth that it matters little if you like or dislike the idea of God existing. Still maybe you are not convinced. Maybe you believe I am guilty of doing the exact same thing, reordering history to fit my particular bent. Maybe rather than taking these accounts at face value you have researched the actual historical facts and are aware of some evidence which I am not. Is there one particular piece of evidence which you found really compelling and worthy of scrutiny? <br /><br />And thank you for continuing the discussion in a clear headed fashion. If you are ever actually interested in what the parable of prodigal sons is maybe you would listen to Tim Kellers' sermon on it?<br /><br />I believe you listened to one of his previous sermons and found it not too disagreeable, here is the link:<br /><br />http://sermons2.redeemer.com/sermons/prodigal-sonsstevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07735856522366561444noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-68327275018045829.post-52663822535209642252011-06-28T15:56:32.860-06:002011-06-28T15:56:32.860-06:00The purpose of the second son or the the faithful ...The purpose of the second son or the the faithful one who stayed with his father was to basically tell the pharisees and anyone else who poo pooed him interacting with sinners to shut up.<br />That while being good,faithful,righteous and following the expectations of what you are supposed to do is great and you would be rewarded for it but it was more important that another soul <br />be saved and come back to a proper relationship with God.I would personally boil it down to great I already control you and you do what I say and you'll get what's coming to you,wonderful!<br />BUT...what's far more important are the people I don't have control over yet!THAT is my goal!But maybe that's just me.<br /><br />The bible IS what it IS,nothing less nothing more.It has nothing to do with the "holy spirit" interpreting for us.I can say Mein Kampf is a nice little book on foreign policy<br />and how to "properly"and"kindly"deal with those slightly difficult Jewish folks all I want but that doesn't make me correct.Oh and did the holy spirit explain to you what the ENTIRE<br />bible was about,or just the accepted books that MAN put together to paint the most flattering godlike picture of Jesus it could?<br /><br /><i>God is saying don't make an image of anything Steve,in heaven,on earth or in the water and don't bow down and worship anything but him.For he is a jealous God and will hold a grudge <br />against you and your family,even up to 3 or 4 generations in the future except to those who "love him and uphold his commandments,those he will show mercy to(there's those darned human emotions again)<br />And that kind of goes against the whole Jesus message of love those who hate you,turn the other cheek and all you have to do is accept me and you will experience Gods grace.</i><br /><br />That is what I said.Where in that entire quote did you possibly get something about a physical description of god being in the bible and that I was saying your god wanted you to worship Idols?<br /><br />Finally I was trying to point out the difference between you and I and why you can't accept that I was a true God fearing/loving Christian and yet somehow walked away.Let's say we both believed in Santa Claus,<br />He was the Jolly Fat man in the red suit that put presents under the tree at Christmas time.I grew up and realized that there was no Jolly red fat man,that what he supposedly accomplished every <br />Christmas would take the work of a supernatural being and was physically impossible otherwise,the there was no proof of the supernatural and that it was in fact my mother who worked hard and bought all the <br />presents to give to me whilst giving credit to a fairytale man because that's what she was expected to do.<br />You grew up and thought well maybe their isn't a Santa Claus but someone has to put the presents under tree and mom and dad told me there's a Santa Claus and that bastard gave me coal one year...so I know someone<br />puts the presents there,I just don't know who.Eventually coming to the conclusion that Yep I know definitively that there is a Santa Claus.How you ask well for starters there's this story "Twas the night before Christmas "<br />And that gives a pretty accurate portrayal of Santa and how he goes about his business.It even talks about Sleighs and Reindeer and I know those exist so Santa must as well.On top of that,I met the guy!Well not really met<br />I couldn't actually see him,but I definitely felt his presence...so yep definitely Santa Claus.<br />Whole point being I walked away completely and you did not,you still believed there was some deity out there,you just weren't sure how to define him and finally,however it happened,you came back to your christian beliefs and the "one true god". <br /><br />And if I'm ever in your neck of the woods we can definitely have a beer(I'm a killians guy myself) and discuss anything you want :DFatboy73https://www.blogger.com/profile/04770482415512154108noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-68327275018045829.post-3441005114501806972011-06-28T10:59:44.435-06:002011-06-28T10:59:44.435-06:00Brett, You do understand the Bible is not a scienc...Brett, You do understand the Bible is not a science book. Right? Please stop attacking it as if that was what we are talking about.<br /><br /><br />The Bible is not going to explain evolution to you. It will not date the earth. It will not explain morphology. <br /><br />Can we stop arguing about things that are not in the Bible and maybe discuss what is in it?<br /><br />Do you argue that Shakespeare does not explain evolution or the Iliad doesn't understand Carbon dating?<br /><br />They never were meant to.<br /><br />Maybe this will help you out. Set evolution aside. There are theistic evolutionists. They believe the Bible and all of your science, not just the empirical stuff I accept-but what you belive; they also believe your applied theories.<br /><br />Evolution does not disprove the Bible. The Bible does not disprove Evolution. Science and Religion when properly practiced complement each other. They have some overlap, but they by definition do not comment on the central principles of the other.<br /><br />1.God used Creation, ID, Evolution, etc. Doesn't change the core of Christianity. God did it how ever he wants.<br /><br />2.Nature creates itself out of nothing using the Poof theory, Intelligent Design by aliens, Evolution- nothing created something and something evolved upward.<br /><br />Believe what you want. Your abiogenesis theory is not going to dent religious belief. <br /><br />Now Christianity offers philosophical consequences if God created us, just as there are philosophical consequences if God did not create us.<br /><br />You seem to always argue against a "them" this form of Christianity which isn't what I believe. Apparently I don't know what I believe and you do. Somehow you know my beliefs aren't actual Christianity, but every sill caricature which you find online is more accurate.<br /><br />fine.<br /><br />Imagine I am the only Christian on the face of the Earth. Talk to Me. Discuss MY beliefs with ME not those silly flat earth snake handlers who apparently are everywhere out there.<br /><br />first step. You can be an evolutionist and believe in Jesus. You really can. So your major obstacle is out of the way. What is your next one?stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07735856522366561444noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-68327275018045829.post-16778505036538367502011-06-28T10:39:19.235-06:002011-06-28T10:39:19.235-06:00Fatboy so much good stuff, I would love just to si...Fatboy so much good stuff, I would love just to sit down and have a beer with you sometime and to over your problems with Christianity. <br /><br />The prodigal sons story: You nailed the meaning of the first son. Could you please tell me what the purpose of the second son is?<br /><br />Your story of the parent, kid, secret language book is a really good one. Remember the Bible will not make sense unless the Holy Spirit uses it. The translation key which you say is locked away so the child can't get to it is in away true. Non-Christians can read the Bible, memorize it, copy it, repeat it, tattoo it, draw it, color it, quote it, etc. The Bible is a physical book after all, the thing is, unless you are a Christian you will not understand it. The Holy Spirit's job is to reveal the spiritual truths. I know, it sounds hokey to modern ears. Sounds like magic or some such nonsense. All I know is I knew what was in the Bible because I went to church, it wasn't until I became a Christian did it actually speak to me.<br /><br />Hmmm. your 2nd commandment interpretation is interesting. What are the physical appearances in the Bible you say are descriptive of what God looks like? I guess I'm missing your point. Are you saying rather than not worshiping images, God does want us to have idols?<br /><br />Finally I can totally get walking away from God. When you say I never stopped believing in God, you are a bit off. First off I did not believe in an accurate view of God in the first place, I believed in some sort of deity, but it was very inaccurate to who Jesus is. So it isn't like I understood the faith and was walking away after faithful service. I guess maybe that is your story? Mine is more I went to church, I was religious, and I did what my parents and culture expected of me. It wasn't a genuine belief I chose or embraced. It was more of going through the motions, and to be honest avoiding church life as much as I could get away with. So I didn't have a genuine accurate understanding to begin with. It was just a religious cultural version of Christianity. God may have been a reality but he wasn't central to my life. Does that make sense?stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07735856522366561444noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-68327275018045829.post-29171939056003465042011-06-23T10:14:32.580-06:002011-06-23T10:14:32.580-06:00This comment has been removed by the author.Bretthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12168403050889835504noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-68327275018045829.post-36617310636767664752011-06-23T10:14:29.293-06:002011-06-23T10:14:29.293-06:00Steve,
Evolution, also make predictions, and so f...Steve,<br /><br />Evolution, also make predictions, and so far those predictions have come true. It's not just guesses. And no Steve you were not just telling me things other scientist had said. You believed that and argued with me. <br /><br />I find it funny that a book written for illiterate people thousands of years ago, with no scientific knowledge, can be interpreted correctly only by you and the others you approve of. You tell me you take the bible literally, then explain human ancestors. There shouldn't be any. Explain why the more primative animals live in the oldest rock formations. Explain if you god loves us so very much he feels the need to kill us... over a fruit.<br /><br />Your really afraid of him and will do anything you can to appease him... that doesn't sound like love to me. Sounds like fear-mongering.<br /><br />Best,<br /><br />Brett<br /><br />Sorry about the basement, but you really should stop storing things down there or maybe get some high shelves? I know it keeps flooding on you. And sorry about your foot, now I know why you've had so much posting time!Bretthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12168403050889835504noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-68327275018045829.post-39524619689945883002011-06-23T09:53:39.519-06:002011-06-23T09:53:39.519-06:00I'm very familiar with the story of the prodig...I'm very familiar with the story of the prodigal son,in fact I just colored a 4 page mini on the story.I'm sorry but the story is about the supposed infinite grace and mercy God has for sinners<br />and that they will always be accepted back into the fold with great rejoicing no matter what they do.The story says nothing about misconceptions of God and nothing about the sons not loving <br />their father,it was for the pharisees criticizing Jesus for eating and hanging around with sinners.All the other crap was injected later by scholars who must have figured that the story wasn't <br />good enough on it's own and this is what it really must have meant.That's another problem I have,the bible is the absolute of god and what it says is what it means...except when it's convenient<br />for it to have another deeper hidden meaning.If it's subject to different interpretations of it's meaning then it's not the infallible word of a perfect God.How could a perfect being of higher<br />intelligence leave his message to his creations that he wants to have a loving relationship with up to interpretation?<br /><br />That's like a parent who died before their child ever knew them leaving them a book that contains their thoughts,how much that parent loved the child and wishes they could be with them,and pretty<br />much everything the parent would have taught the child had they been there,also directions and a key to a hidden fortune so that child would never need for anything,<br />BUT...The book is written in a language conceived of and known only to the parents and can only be translated without a cipher that is locked in a safe along with the key to the safe.<br /><br />You can not imagine someone genuinely loving God,being more than just a going through the motions Christian and finally coming to their senses and walking away because you never really came to your senses.<br />By your own admission deep down you still believed in God but you were pissed off at him and needed to do some soul searching.I have completely amputated the idea of God from my life after much contemplation<br />and finally coming to the knowledge that it was all bunk.<br /><br />God is saying don't make an image of anything Steve,in heaven,on earth or in the water and don't bow down and worship anything but him.For he is a jealous God and will hold a grudge against you and your family,even up to 3 or 4 generations<br />in the future except to those who "love him and uphold his commandments,those he will show mercy to(there's those darned human emotions again)<br />And that kind of goes against the whole Jesus message of love those who hate you,turn the other cheek and all you have to do is accept me and you will experience Gods grace.<br /><br />Material representations of god would lower our conception of him? Really,like his verbal descriptions in the bible aren't enough to do that.And come to think of it even writing about god is a graven image<br />and should technically be considered sin.<br />I think the portrayals of God in the bible were not only representative of the people of the time but that it didn't matter how badly or unjust god acted or the hell he put his "chosen" through<br />because they didn't have a choice,Fear ruled and they were told from their ability to comprehend that this is your God and this is how he is,don't question it just deal with it.Fatboy73https://www.blogger.com/profile/04770482415512154108noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-68327275018045829.post-75660470798164139952011-06-23T06:42:33.855-06:002011-06-23T06:42:33.855-06:00"You would think that the almighty creator of..."You would think that the almighty creator of the universe and everything that is would at least be able get a consistent image out across the board.The only thing consistent is how people<br />physically portray God in artwork,powerful older man,silver hair and beard in a flowing robe...Who kinda looks like Odin...who kinda looks like Zeus... see a pattern here?"-Fatboy<br /><br />Hmmm...It is almost like God is really smart, knew that would be a problem, and said...<br /><br /> “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.” Exodus 20:4-6 <br /><br />Broad and very comprehensive in its wording, the second commandment forbids the worship of the true God through icons, images, or other man-made symbolisms. Many of the heathen nations around Israel claimed that their images were mere figures or symbols by which the Deity was worshiped, but God has declared such worship to be sin. The attempt to represent the Eternal One by material objects would lower man's conception of God. The mind, turned away from the infinite perfection of Jehovah, would be attracted to the creature rather than to the Creator. And as his conceptions of God were lowered, man’s worship of God—his view of God—would be lowered as well.stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07735856522366561444noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-68327275018045829.post-45769658690998149882011-06-23T06:26:51.855-06:002011-06-23T06:26:51.855-06:00If you were in the church for twenty years then I’...If you were in the church for twenty years then I’m sure you heard the parable of the prodigal sons. Basically it is a story Jesus used (in Luke 15) to show people one of the basic misconceptions about God. The young son runs away from his father and blows his inheritance on partying; the older son stays at home with God and is good. Eventually the younger son comes home when he is out of money and his dad forgives him. This really ticks off the older son because the older son feels he has been good and done all the right stuff. In this story both sons were guilty of not really loving the father; the youngest ran away and used the Father’s money to live a life of debauchery, the older son stayed in the father’s house, did all the right actions, but at the end of the story he is revealed to have never really loved the father-he did not understand his character, and like the younger son he was far from actually knowing his dad because he was only using the father. Older Brother lived a self centered life where he wanted to “earn” his acceptance. Jesus was saying you can be very far from actually knowing God by either running away (younger brother) or staying and being only religious (older brother.)<br /><br />I was just like the older brother for the majority of my early life. Until I was 20 I was “religious” I didn’t realize there was any other way to be a Christian. Then when I joined the Army, left home, and started to see other cultures and religions I became curious about why I would be so egotistical to think I had the one right religion. Then my girl friend dumped me because “Jesus told her to.” At that point I walked away and became more like the younger brother. At Art College I was able to reinvent myself and be a totally different person, I made all new friends, and the only stipulation I had for my new friends is they could not be Christians. I wanted nothing to do with God or his people, he seemed like a big killjoy and his followers were no better.<br /><br />So when I hear someone say they were devout and walked away from the church, I often wonder if perhaps they were like me; saying all the right stuff, praying, singing, going to church functions, and giving God lip service. But did they really love God or were they just using God so they could be in his house, using his stuff, appeasing their parents, and becoming a self-righteous upstanding moral person who appears good, but has a heart which doesn’t love God for who He is.<br /><br />Anyways the mischaracterization statements you make about God are common for people who’ve never read the Bible or been to church. It surprises me that you spent twenty years in church and you would use these same statements. When you asked people at your church while you were there what did they say? Did anyone explain how the OT Judaism faith was necessary for us to ever get to a NT Church? Did they ever walk you through the chronology of the God’s plan for redemption? Why there were so many odd cultural laws in Leviticus? Are you saying it was explained to you and didn’t make sense or that your church never covered these topics?<br /><br />Stevestevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07735856522366561444noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-68327275018045829.post-24492268755524942422011-06-23T06:24:14.695-06:002011-06-23T06:24:14.695-06:00This comment has been removed by the author.stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07735856522366561444noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-68327275018045829.post-4992748203343955902011-06-22T23:44:14.329-06:002011-06-22T23:44:14.329-06:00First off sorry to hear about your basement man,I ...First off sorry to hear about your basement man,I just had mine flood about two months back.There was about an inch and a half of water covering my entire basement floor,<br />had to go buy a shop vac and a squeegee and was up till 4 in the morning.The I spent the rest of the next day drying everything up and dry locking the entire basement,<br />talk about fun!<br /><br />I'll start out by saying that what is curious to me is that you somehow assume I know less than you about god and the bible.I spent 20 some odd years as a devout Christian <br />and my entire life was the church and god.60-70% of my time was spent in church,youth group,bible study,church camp and summer bible school etc...<br /><br />And I definitely know enough to know that the characterization of god over the past 2000 years has most definitely NOT remained the same.He went from very specifically being <br />relatable to the Hebrew people of the time and being the one to hold them to their traditional customs by telling them how they need to live in all aspects of their life,<br />most of which would never fly in the 21st century.You would have PETA,The U.S. government and every women's rites group in existence pounding down your door.<br />He was a blood thirsty war like god to the ancient Israelites who needed him to be that to justify the wars,killing and acquisition of territory for their people.<br />He's been portrayed as vengeful and full of wrath,genocidal,jealous,petty,misogynistic,megalomaniacal an so on and so forth,all of which would never fly in today's society.<br />Fast forward to the modern day and you have a god that has now sent his "son"(another human invention) to die on the cross for our sins(another idea that has spanned time and <br />a lot of different religions) who seems to have forgotten a lot his silly antiquated rules about customs and traditions and takes on more of a curmudgeonly old father role while<br />Jesus becomes his press agent and the face of a modern religion.<br /><br />Even between religions they can't agree who exactly he is.Some think God has one aspect and that is of the father,some think the father and the son exist and some believe in the trinity.<br />Christianity say's we're made in his image,Islam says he doesn't resemble us in any way shape or form.Some try to explain Gods bad behavior in the old testament by saying oh well that was <br />YHWH and he was an older evil deity not the god we know today(there goes the one God theory)Now there are even people who say God is an extraterrestrial.<br /><br />You would think that the almighty creator of the universe and everything that is would at least be able get a consistent image out across the board.The only thing consistent is how people<br />physically portray God in artwork,powerful older man,silver hair and beard in a flowing robe...Who kinda looks like Odin...who kinda looks like Zeus... see a pattern here?<br /><br />Again god is consistently put into a human box that you say he can not possibly fit into.Love,parental Father child relationships,punishment,anger,discipline.These are all human concepts,<br />not something that an omnipotent omniscient cosmos spanning entity would find the least bit useful.And we are the center of his existence,he created us,he created the sun and the planet <br />and all that surrounds us for us.The bible doesn't say anything about"and then God created life in the Andromeda Galaxy on the planet &^%&^$&%$".No the people who wrote the texts that <br />eventually became the bible didn't know anything about other galaxies and other planets so they wrote what they knew about which is us!Fatboy73https://www.blogger.com/profile/04770482415512154108noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-68327275018045829.post-16792274644207677952011-06-22T12:17:10.290-06:002011-06-22T12:17:10.290-06:00This will be brief. We had a minor storm but in my...This will be brief. We had a minor storm but in my little hobunk town that means the power was out for two hours which means my basement flooded. I have a few broken toes and maybe a fractured foot from a minor accident last week, so it was a slow arduous task to get the basement partially evacuated. Lost lots of comics, graphic novels, artwork, toys, most of my National Geographics, but I was able to save my computer.<br /><br />So you guys will get off easy, I'm manning the pumps today.<br /><br />It is curious to me Fatboy, that I have spent twenty years studying the Bible, reading commentaries and even learning a bit of Hebrew and Greek, and somehow you would believe yourself to have a better understanding. Apparently the more you know about the Bible actually the less you know? Also why is my understanding the mis characterization of God's character? For over 2000 years it has been the dominant scholarly interpretation, doesn't that count for something?<br /><br />Anyways what are these petty character flaws you find evident in the Bible? God doesn't "need" us to worship Him. Remember the Bible teaches He was self sufficient and perfectly fine without us. He created us out of love and because he created us to function in a love relationship with Him, he wants what is best for us which is-Him. He uses the imagery of a parental relationship, parents want what is best for their kids, often at odds with what their kids want. Outside of Disney films, parents actually do know best and usually are right. Because parents love they even have to do what is best for their offspring when it causes friction in the relationship. Are your parents stupid and dysfunctional for wanting and expecting you to love, respect, and obey them? Do you believe kids do best with no parental discipline? Do you find the people who are most happy are the self-centered rebellious types? So if someone knows what is best for you, for instance say if they created you, maybe they do have a right to tell you why you are here.<br /><br />And Brett your silly examples were things I said some scientists have said are possible solutions. I was not saying that is what I believe. I'm the guy who believes what is proven and says I will wait on the rest until their is solid evidence. I don't lock myself into an interpretation that is not yet demonstrable. You fill in the gaps with whatever evolutionists tell you "might have happened."stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07735856522366561444noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-68327275018045829.post-85295345950949420992011-06-21T11:13:16.196-06:002011-06-21T11:13:16.196-06:00Fatboy,
I think I got a little tear of joy in the...Fatboy,<br /><br />I think I got a little tear of joy in the corner of my eye. Very, very well put! Far better than I could have done myself!<br /><br />Best!<br /><br />BrettBretthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12168403050889835504noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-68327275018045829.post-12209662559509966772011-06-21T11:06:14.729-06:002011-06-21T11:06:14.729-06:00Steve,
you reply was very nice,polite and well put...Steve,<br />you reply was very nice,polite and well put but...you believe the bible to be the absolute true word of god.you say that<br />your God is so far beyond our understanding that we can not possibly comprehend,control,dictate,reject who he is or put <br />him in any kind of box.Its up to him to define himself and how he chooses to reveal himself to us.<br /><br />I do not need to put your God in a box because he has already done that to himself.Your absolute word of God describes very<br />well and very definitively,the nature of "God" and it isn't a pretty picture,I don't need to rehash details because you know already<br />that "God" as portrayed in the bible suffers from every single human downfall known to man. <br /><br />The "God" you believe in is a very different one than portrayed in the bible and completely subject to your own personal ideals and morals.<br />And very much subject to the whims of whatever current society believes him to exist.<br />You have very clearly stated YOUR position on god and what he means to you but the discrepancies between your view of god and the supposed<br />accurate portrayal in the bible are so great that you wouldn't possibly let them slide in any other aspect of your life but "faith" and the<br />need to believe have blinded you to that fact.<br />If there were a god and he was so far advanced as to be beyond human comprehension then why would he have such human needs and wants?<br />His goals would be so far beyond the need to be worshiped by us or even be in the least bit concerned with us except as maybe as a curiosity.<br />We would be a microbe in a puddle to him,a blip on the radar screen,not the center of his universe.<br />He wouldn't have human limitation and need to rest between days of creation (you said the bible is absolutely true so it is or it isn't)<br />Concepts of human morals and wickedness would have no more meaning to him than they do to that ant crawling across the floor.<br />you consistently put god in a human box that you say he could not possibly fit into.<br />I could go on and these are not original Ideas and concepts Steve but they make so much common sense that the only way someone as intelligent as you<br />appear to be couldn't see that is the faith blinders you have on while figuratively sticking your fingers in your ears and going LA LA LA LA LA LA!<br /><br />The reason you debunk all of Brett's post are because you think you can.I was just like you Steve and fully on your side of the table till I realized<br />it was all for naught.I am not some poor confused soul flitting in the wind,desperately searching for guidance and needing someone to save me.<br />I am as strong in my convictions as you are in yours and my mind can not and will not be changed except by the definitive proof that I require.<br /> <br />I don't have an axe to grind with God,get pissed at or angry with because he is a fictional creation of mankind's own making who so parallels man in<br />his thoughts and actions that he may as well be a man.<br />What I have a problem with is the CRAP that is perpetrated in the name of this fictional creation.What I have a problem with is otherwise intelligent people <br />who devalue their own self worth and place in society so much that they feel the need to succumb to the will of a supposed being that can only be defined through <br />what other humans in the same situation say he is supposed to be. <br />You don't have much patience for discussing religion with someone who has a desire for the truth but not truth the way you see it.I have all the patience in the world<br />if it means that one person comes to realization that they are worth beyond what a supposed God places on us.That life is more than worrying about what happens to you<br />after your dead and that simply YOU are responsible for your actions and accountable to those whom your actions affect.Strive to be happy but realize that you need to do so<br />within the rules of the society you chose to live in.Fatboy73https://www.blogger.com/profile/04770482415512154108noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-68327275018045829.post-4745095479222856052011-06-21T09:18:21.237-06:002011-06-21T09:18:21.237-06:00Steve,
Debunking means disproving it. You haven&#...Steve,<br /><br />Debunking means disproving it. You haven't done that. You simply say I'm wrong, give some halfassed answer that makes sense only to you. And proclaim yourself winner... That's not how this works.<br /><br />If ANY supernatural anything could be proved, then you might have a leg to stand on. But you're saying you're proof is supernatural and since we can't test it, you automatically win. WTF? All supernatural 'evidence' has failed when tested. I'm still waiting for them ghosts. It's not like they haven't been looking for the last 6 years.<br /><br />You were never in the process of giving up god, that you can't see this astounds me. You can't hate something that doesn't exist!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Damn man you need to lean some reasoning skills, because this is getting unbelievable. I accept most of Fatboys info, because we have read a lot of the same stuff. I reject yours because I've either read about it before, it makes no logical sense and can therefor be rejected, OR if I haven't heard of it I LOOK IT UP, and then reject it because it's wrong. I find it funny as hell that you accuse us of this but you are the one actually doing it!<br /><br />And there you go again Steve, with your superiority, "Christians" you know the face ones, that don't believe the way I want them to... because my interpretation is the correct one.<br /><br />Steve, you know I used to research all your 'arguments', but frankly, after you had the nerve to say that all human relatives, from Homo Erectus to Neanderthals were just really old modern humans, I can't honestly take much of what you say seriously. 'Lightning changes the dates of fossils', I'm still hitting my head against the wall over that one. <br /><br />Best,<br /><br />BrettBretthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12168403050889835504noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-68327275018045829.post-70258108779596216322011-06-21T06:34:02.948-06:002011-06-21T06:34:02.948-06:00The reason I debunk all of Brett’s posts is becaus...The reason I debunk all of Brett’s posts is because I was on the outside looking in at one point. Unlike your generalization of why people are Christians, I was in the process of walking away from God. I was giving him the bird and trying to push Him further away. I don’t think I didn’t believe in some sort of deity, but I really wasn’t interested in serving Jesus. He was screwing up my life and not giving me what I wanted, if that is how he treated his “faithful” I wasn’t interested. I was open to exploring other faiths so I went on a long intense search to find out what was true and why or if I should believe Christianity. I said your exact words, “What if I only thought it was real because I was raised in it?” What if my parents were Hindus or Muslims? Wouldn’t I believe differently? What if it is only cultural?”<br /><br />That is why I do what I do. I get it. I know what it is like to be confused, disappointed, upset, and even extremely pissed at God, or even angry at the very idea there is a God who I am supposed to some how serve.<br /><br />So I’m not out to crush you with my intellect, I get what it is like to have honest questions. I just don’t have much patience for discussing religion with the person who has no real desire to know the truth and only has an anti-God ax to grind. Brett believes every post you put up without ever questioning your facts or sources. He rejects everything I post on faith without digging deeper. That seems somewhat inconsistent to me.<br /><br /> It may surprise you, but I am also pretty hard on “Christians” as well. So few actually have researched what their faith believes or why it has survived. They are happy to get a “get out of Hell free” card and then live a self centered life trying to chase the American dream, but they throw Jesus’ name in the mix for a little extra protection or to give them some sort of moral authority to look down on people. If you think I’m hard on Brett, you should see what I put a Pharisee through.stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07735856522366561444noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-68327275018045829.post-23900679139641078232011-06-21T06:33:37.575-06:002011-06-21T06:33:37.575-06:00Fatboy, I really believe the Bible is true. A lot...Fatboy, I really believe the Bible is true. A lot of it is incredible and stretches the limits of plausibility. It is absolutely impossible if the supernatural doesn’t exist. But if the supernatural is possible, the only way we would be able to know or confirm it is if the supernatural chose to reveal itself. At that point we would be playing catch up, we couldn’t control what we were allowed to know or the type of info the supernatural would reveal. It would be totally up to the supernatural, not our ability to detect or comprehend. By definition its characteristics and abilities would be beyond ours. It is sort of like every cheesy sci-fi movie showing first contact, we don’t call the shots when we are dealing with a higher intelligence, our chief goal is to try to understand and open a line of communication.<br /><br /> Imagine trying to run Windows 7 on a pocket calculator- the info would be beyond the calculator’s feeble processors to handle, so if Windows 7 was sentient and still wanted the calculator to understand something about itself it would have to over time reveal small bits of info as proof. The calculator would be totally dependant on Windows 7 to control every aspect of the relationship, the calculator couldn’t get upset and say Windows 7 showed it the wrong stuff or not enough info or Windows 7 isn’t the type of program the calculator likes or expected. God gets to control the tempo and nature of our relationship to Him if he is real, we are totally out of our league to dictate, control, or reject who He is based on our own criteria. Of course if He is real and he is loving, he would choose to relate to us in a loving way we would understand.<br /><br />If you read my “biology book vs lover” post, I was trying to show relationship vs. information. God has chosen rather than basing a relationship with Him on obtaining information that he wants the foundation to be love. Christianity is never less than creedal (info, doctrinal, the Bible, moral laws) but it is so much more. God doesn’t want a religion where the more you know the more you control. He has designed Christianity so that those who would try to use it with self-centered motives will be frustrated and revealed as hypocrites. All the church scandals? Everyone is revealed to be a hypocrite because the nature of Christianity is to expel the immoral hypocrite. You can’t control God or use him for your purposes, you’ll end up like the Nazis at the end of Raiders of the Lost Ark. When you deal with God you have to be humble and submissive, this goes against our natural self centered hearts and keeps many from even considering God. And since Christianity is not based off of obtaining or even fully understanding information but is rather based off of LOVE it is a relationship available to all people, of all races, of all cultures, of all ages, and yes (Brett will get a kick out of this one) all intelligences- Christianity works for both the Genius and the Idiot because foundationally it is relational not informational. <br /><br />If God is real you would have to admit, if He is fair and good, He would have to create a system open to all people and not just the educated or highly intelligent.stevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07735856522366561444noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-68327275018045829.post-49931585989601297902011-06-20T23:16:50.531-06:002011-06-20T23:16:50.531-06:00I will be the first on to admit Steve that all the...I will be the first on to admit Steve that all the so called easily refutable garbage I've been spewing is not my original ideas.These ideas have been around for a long time and were conceived by people a lot smarter than me.I do not claim to be the all knowing seat of knowledge upon which Atheism rests.If there is something I do not know enough about to discuss intelligently I have to read and study and search and then read some more to find valid ideas that make sense and parallel my own thoughts and ideas on the subject at hand.<br />What I do know is that religion and specifically Christianity and the bible are not only ridiculous because they take themselves so seriously but are so obviously a product of man's imagination and longing to know where we came from,how it all ties together and our place in the universe.It boggles the mind to think that after all the millenia and all the faiths and religions that have come and gone and are now considered mythology,that anyone could take it seriously.<br />anyway,I'm not going to write a novel explaining myself when there are people that parallel my views and do it so neatly and succinctly.<br />Oh and I just want to say that your statement<i> "is it okay if we explore some of what Fatboy is stating in a little more detail? Rather than tackling it all at once I would love to dismantle it piece by piece, cool?"</i> just goes to show that you have no plan to pay any attention to the facts,you automatically assume that with your vast irrefutable mental library of knowledge that you will easily be able dispute and squash any of the silly ridiculous "facts" or information I might come up with.<br />So now that we have that out of the way here are the links. <br />http://www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm<br />http://www.i4m.com/think/bible/historical_jesus.htm<br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_mythologyFatboy73https://www.blogger.com/profile/04770482415512154108noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-68327275018045829.post-21285254416591566582011-06-20T20:13:14.750-06:002011-06-20T20:13:14.750-06:00Fatboy you do have some interesting ideas. I woul...Fatboy you do have some interesting ideas. I would be interested in hearing more about this Jewish Jesus who fulfilled the Messianic requirements centuries before Jesus. You are saying he was not a false teacher? He met the requirements, or at least was reported, to be born from the line of David by a virgin in Bethlehem? He lived a sinless life and was crucifed or at least murdered for claiming to be God? It is true the name Jesus, Yeshua, means savior or saved and was somewhat common. Seriously I would love a link to some information on this incredible person who fulfilled the Messianic prophecies centuries before Jesus. I’ve only heard of failed individuals who claimed to be the Messiah and ended up kind of petering out or disqualifying themselves.<br /><br />I do have to ask, do you actually really believe any of the stuff you post or are you just interested in getting me to debunk it? If you actually believe this stuff, and I show you more reputable sources and historical facts are you interested in the truth? Don’t take this the wrong way but your stories sound like the sort of stuff they play on the Discovery Channel, or Bill Mahr repeats, or that video saying Christianity was based on Mithras which went viral a few years ago. The stuff is just so silly it just gets tedious going through it all, the problem is both secular and Christian scholars reject most of this stuff. It only gets repeated by folks with an ax to grind against traditional faith. I mean if you are legitimately interested I will answer your questions. But if you are just repeating something you personally don’t believe or only read online in a chatroom please save us both the time. Again if you honestly think any of the stuff you posted is true, please defend it and provide some references. This pre-Jesus Jesus is intriguing. <br /><br />The rest of your stuff I could spend pages debunking, and I actually typed out a much longer rebuttal, but let’s take this piece by piece.<br /><br />Brett love ya man but you aren’t really saying anything new, is it okay if we explore some of what Fatboy is stating in a little more detail? Rather than tackeling it all at once I would love to dismantle it piece by piece, cool?illustratorxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16786727385152579319noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-68327275018045829.post-5097637208073063662011-06-20T18:11:01.963-06:002011-06-20T18:11:01.963-06:00Steve, how does Jews living in Egypt, equal eviden...Steve, how does Jews living in Egypt, equal evidence for a the Exodus? No one is saying the Jews never lived there, what there is no evidence to support is them being slaves and leaving en mass to wonder aimlessly for 40 years. 40 years, with NO evidence. All the Egyptian documents make no mention of an exodus. <br /><br />Lots of people died on the cross. It was a very common punishment. Why does Jesus doing it make him any more special than any of the others? I think maybe you've forgotten about some crazy Muslims blowing up some buildings recently. All done for their religion.<br /><br />Steve your sex analogy is horrid! Way to make sex boring as hell! Just because you know how something works is not the same thing to anyone as doing it, pun intended. Your relation is not with a living being, he does not fit any of the qualification of being alive. Does he breath? Eat? Shit? Die? Every living being must do these things. And if all your information comes from a book, that is what you are having a relationship with, why else would the book be sacred? <br /><br />Fatboy,<br /><br />Excellent job, but I think Steve will never admit that their God isn't a real thing:( But great reading none the less!<br /><br />M.O.R.,<br /><br />Sorry, I didn't find anything good this week:( Just stuff we've already covered. <br /><br />Best,<br /><br />BrettBretthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12168403050889835504noreply@blogger.com