Some of you might not know this, but you are actually all atheists to some degree. You dismiss others religions, even though there are people who believe in them. Fully developed Atheists simply apply this logic to every religion. The only way you will convince one of these fully developed Atheists is with evidence, philosophical arguments just won't do it. We want to see the sausage... eh... evidence.
All this talk of us 'Not Understanding' is really rubbish. Most of us were raised under some form of religion. We just didn't find the answers that religion gave us satisfactory, so we went elsewhere. Oh, and the 'You didn't really give it a try' argument is also rubbish. Did you really give all the other religions a try? How do you know one of them isn't actually true if you didn't bother with them, oh that's right you just 'knew.'
I do want to know have you ever tried to actually look at religion logically? If all others are false how is yours true? They all have the same evidence, stories. What makes yours so special that you can ignore all others but accept yours? Because a religion say's it 'true' doesn't make it so. 'Feelings' are not evidence. And if you mention faith healers I will strike you down with the MILLIONS of religious people with missing limbs that never seem to grow back.
Read the comments in the link!
Best!
Brett
Some people actually use the fact that all the religions of the world have similar aspects to them as proof that their MUST be a higher power.The rational being that yes there are differences in religions,but that's because of cultural differences.Simply the fact that every culture believes in some sort of higher power proves to them that their must be a deity.
ReplyDeleteBrett--
ReplyDeleteI wonder if you've ever noticed how much you actually have in common with those who are deeply devoted to their religion. Consider that you have posted something on a Sunday (though you wouldn't call it your sabbath) 49 times in a little over a year since you began the Sunday Blasphemy posts. I am sure there are some priests who would fail to match that record of weekly devotion. Of course, the altar you go to is of your own creation and one that demands proof and the use of logic, which I get...
However, there is an element of faith woven into your viewpoint as well. For instance, a religious person would answer the question, "What was there before the creation of our universe?" with, "God, duh." But the atheist or science-minded person lacks proof, and that makes the shrug of the shoulders, an "umm...," or the most definitive summary of M-theory no more valid than the answer, "God, duh." With this in mind, there are many things about our existence that have yet to be answered, and in all such cases, faith is the only option. Case in point, your deep faith in your atheism's veracity-- you can no more disprove God's existence than any religious person can prove it, though I do recognize that the burden of proof is on the individual who claims something exists, no the other way around.
You are also very active in questioning other people's beliefs (I assume in the hopes that it will be replaced with your worldview) which is an approach that was practically invented by Organized Religion.
I am not trying to be a troll, and I have done my best to abide by your Sunday Blasphemy rule (commandment?) of backing up what I have said with facts. It may just be that you and a regular Charlie Church have more similarities than you might expect when it comes to faith, devotion, and the practices by which you live them out. Hoping you'll reply, as I am a huge fan-- you are the artist that got me into collecting comics-- (and even if you weren't, I find discussions like this interesting)
T-F
Fatboy,
ReplyDeleteYeah, they are similar... at least the old world ones on the surface, of course that could just be people looking for similarities and patterns like we tend to do;)
T-F,
I do it on Sunday because that's usually the most sacred day, and since there are 52 Sundays a year I came close at 49! It wouldn't be nearly as bad if I did it on Tuesday;)
See, I can disprove all religions on earth as they are classically described. I can't disprove this more amorphous God that's worshiped nowadays since it's not really the same one that's in the bible. It's just based on that one. Sure we don't know were life first started or how... yet. We do know the big bang happened. We know evolution is happening. These are facts, there is no belief there. I think the religious can't seem to get that there is no belief in 'Atheism' since atheism is simply the lack of belief. It takes no faith to not believe. Like it takes you no faith to not believe in Thor or Zeus.
And while I'd prefer it is everyone was not religious, it will never happen. What I'm trying to do is show people that there are others with different views and maybe they have just as much right to be heard as everyone else, and maybe there is a need for a more secular world/country/state. I will never force you to convert, but if others had their way they would force me.
Best!
Brett
Are you sure you're an atheist? I just started reading this blog but I notice that you pantomime religion with your weekly post and you wear this so called 'atheism' on you're sleeve better than some devoted to organized actually promote their religion!
ReplyDeleteand you're gravatar is... interesting. Not because it's a pagan symbol, moreso it's that you chose to use a pre-existing symbol like that rather than doing something...ya know... artistic and original! I wouldn't have presumed a pro artist would do that considering you did design your website with your drawings but not a gravatar?
The way that you promote you're 'anti-religion' beliefs is making me hypothesize that you are reacting to something rather than just proving a point. We've all seen those Law and Order episodes where a woman is attacked by man and is traumatized and paranoid of all men for years. I honestly get the impression that you are not anti-religion but you are instead "reacting" to something, I just don't know (or care) what.
P.S. I am not trying to convert you, you can live your life however you please. I just am pointing out an observation.
I love you're art, and you're blog re-enforces that you express yourself as a true artist should, (anti-religion sleeves and all!), should.
-Anthony->
"but if others had their way they would force me"
ReplyDeletesorry, forgot to quote this to re-enforce my point. Not sure where this statement came from but man does it speak VOLUMES.
Atheism is the belief that all evidence best supports the conclusion no God or gods exist. It does not allow for any deity. You can’t be an atheist to some extent, you either are or you aren’t. You are parroting what numerous other pseudo philosophers have attempted to use to gain a few points for their atheistic beliefs. It never works,
ReplyDeleteI can’t believe that Oompa Loompas are all imaginary, except for the one which lives in my basement who I feed stray cats. “No Oompa Loompas exist, and they can not exist,” is a definitive statement which is incompatible the contradictory belief that “My personal favorite Oompa Loompa exists.”
So rather than trying to say to some extent we all are Atheists, you would have an easier time trying to say we are all to some extent agnostic, that is unsure of who or what God/gods exist. Agnostism would say that a deity is unknown or unknowable. This is to start on middle ground from which you can work toward a position of atheism or of deism. It starts with I am not declaring one way or the other.
If you wanted to start at Agnostism and see if there is evidence to move either direction, I would play your game. If you want to start at the deficit of atheism and ask me to move you philosophically up to a the neutral starting zero position of agnostism, well it can be done, it just takes longer, and if our past conversations show anything it is the longer we debate the more opportunities for rabbit trailing arise and there is a tendency for us to run down a rabbit trail and start debating some secondary point like “whale leg bones” or junk DNA.
Anthony,
ReplyDeleteI do it weekly as a joke. You know Sunday is that special day for a large portion of the religious, so Sunday Blasphemy is just a play on that. And because some others complained I did to many posts during the week. So I decided to do it on one day and what better day than Sunday, the first day of the week.
Actually I'm not part of any sort of Atheist group or organization. I'm simply a non believer who enjoys a good discussion and who. quite frankly, can't understand what people see in this religion thing at all.
The A symbol leads to (or should lead to) a 'coming out' page. No my symbol. It's simply there so help others if they are leaning that way. I had another symbol there but it wouldn't work with the link right and to be honest, I'm not great at logos, so why bother?
I am reacting (and this will cover your VOLUMES comment as well.) I'm showing people that there are Atheists out there who are not scientists, who are regular people. I also have a more public 'face' so it's important for people to see that not everyone thinks and agrees with the Christian Nation BS that's flung around. I am reacting to being treated as a second class citizen. I can't hold office in some states, weather people want to admit it or not the Christian religion is constantly shoved down others throats. 'God' is everywhere, which is fine, until it gets into our government were it must not be. There should be no 'in god we trust', or 'Under god' or funding of churches. It might not bother the religious that they can't get an abortion if they need one to save the mothers life, but it bother the hell out of me. That is why I speak up, because someone has to. Passing laws that enforce religion on another in a FREE society is not what a free society would do.
Steve,
Atheism is a TERM. That is all it is. I don't believe in your god because there is NO EVIDENCE. Why do you guys not seem to get this?
You don't believe in Loki or Thor do you? Then you are an Atheist. AN AGNOSTIC would say there is no evidence that they exist but because of that that can't make a decision, and there might be the possibly that they exist. Please get the terms right. I would know as I was an Agnostic before I was an Atheist.
Best,
Brett
Brett,
ReplyDeleteThanks for the reply!!! You have no idea how much you just made my day :-). It gives me a lot of insight on who you are as a person and actually just encouraged me to become a bigger fan. Thanks for humanizing with me :-)
I believe in God. Why? Because I'm willing to make the "leap of faith" demanded by practically every religion. Is there an answer for every question? Hell no. But that's history. It's littered with mysteries. If you're willing to make a leap of faith or not does little to affect outlook on a person. Different strokes for different folks and I am in no way going to force my choices down your throat.
P.S. you're examples seem to stem more from "government" rather than "religion". I do agree that religion and politics aren't supposed to mix. Welcome to America: Land of Hypocrisy. Show me a rule and I'll show you a politician who's gotten away with breaking it. I don't think there's a single form of Government that everyone can agree is better than the other.
Personally, I believe you're sentiments are misdirected.
For me,anti religion is just the butter cream frosting on the delectable cake that is atheism.
ReplyDeleteI will openly and loudly proclaim that organized religion and it's brain dead dogma is one of the greatest downfalls of humankind and is counterproductive to any forward progress.In a perfect world faith in something could exist with out the need or want to force it on others.
As an example I recently had a "Christian" flat out tell me that they would gladly MAKE everyone believe as they do if they could,but they know it doesn't work that way so they don't try.
Now as far as I know this person is a very nice productive member of society but that kind of skewed thinking is representative of what organized religion can do to a person.
@ Fatboy73
ReplyDeleteReligion shouldn't be forced. Period. Sorry you had a bad experience dude. Hopefully someday a someone can show you that we all don't act like that. some people are just deranged.
Anthony,
ReplyDeleteYou might not act like that but most other do. And isn't it your job as a religious person to try and convert others? I thought that was one of the tenants of the Christian faith? That's why there are all those missionaries, converting the heathens by only treating them when they convert.
What I mentioned was just the tip of the ice-burg. The main reason I don't believe is because of my studying of science. Evolution is what started me thinking. You might like mysteries, but I like answers way more. Science provides them or is at the very least trying to provide them. Religion gives me nothing except ridiculous restrictions on things that no 'higher being' should need or require. To put is another way, I see your God as the bad guy from Star Trek 5, what does God need with a star ship? But in this case, what does god need with worshipers? If he truly was a higher being, wouldn't he NOT want worshipers but friends and allies? I know I prefer to talk to the fans about other things than just go on about comics, which is another reason I do these posts;) Sure it's nice to hear that people like the art, but it's way nicer to have some meaningful conversations as equals (which we are in these posts.)
I actually agree with Fatboy, religion makes people well... stupid to a certain extent. How about this, a woman is 6 months pregnant, the placenta detaches and she starts to bleed out. Now the baby is basically dead, it's oxygen has been cut off, at the very least it will be brain dead. Now the religious would have you believe it's gods will and that an abortion is wrong, even now. How it this right, or moral? To let this woman die through no fault of her own, for her husband and children to loose her for a child that is already dead? That is why religion is bad, it leads to bad thinking, absolutes. How can you be trusted to make the right decisions when you disregard this life for some supposed eternal bliss?
And don't get me started on them Ghost Hunters!;)
Best!
Brett
Brett,
ReplyDeleteI make it my job to treat others as I would like to be treated. I don't like the idea of people parading their beliefs or overtly forcing their beliefs on others. That kinda thinking leads to the extremism you describe and bad trains of thought. I think Hitler had that problem.
Dude, I haven't been in a classroom in like 10yrs. I won't embarrass myself by arguing something that I'm not educated enough to talk about anymore.
I do remember a lot studies involve the occasional "theory" that doesn't have evidence to prove or disprove. I *THINK*, (please don't rip me a new one), that the big bang and evolution also have these instances.
I think, personally, when a theory or hypothesis is applied it should also be considered a "leap of belief".
Anthony,
ReplyDeleteI have had sooo many bad experiences with organized religion through out my lifetime that I could write a book.It's not a single or even a few bad experiences that brought me to my current mindset.and even then the disillusionment only served to start me out on my path,I have learned a great many things along the way and Atheism just makes sense.
Oh and Brett is correct in that if you aren't proselytizing(spreading the good news) you aren't being a good Christian.And while most aren't violently pushing their beliefs down your throat,it's usually still very passive aggressive.Example: My significant other and every other "believer"I've ever met,upon finding out I'm an atheist immediately take a pitiful stance and say how sorry they are or how they feel bad for me.Some have even had the balls to say "yes you do...you believe...you did when you were younger so how can you not now,or your just trying to be different or controversial you can't possibly believe in no god or something else condescending.
To which I politely end the conversation there's just no arguing with that kind of brainwashing.
So while there are the enlightened few,most fall into the Pavlov's dogs category and respond exactly as they have been conditioned to do.
Anthony,
ReplyDeleteI agree, Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot all were forcing their ideas, beliefs on others:)
18 years since I've been in a classroom, but I do study things on m own. I know several paleontologists and other scientists I can talk to if I have questions and the like:) I do try to keep up with a lot of the new discoveries, scientists blogs are a wonderful thing!!!
Theory in science does not mean the same as it does on TV. A theory is a group of facts that support an idea. A hypothesis, is an idea with no facts to support it... yet. We know things evolve, we can observe it, we just don't know quite how it's done exactly yet. We know the Big Bang happened because we can see it's remnants (it's the reason why you have static on the radio and TV, that's an after effect we're still experiencing!) We can look back to close to the beginning of the Universe and see the first types of galaxies forming, we can see the light from the Big Bang through the infrared spectrum.
There is nothing to believe here as facts require no belief. 1=1 will always equal 2, the sun will always rise in the east, animals will continue to change, just like culture and religion (which is why you don't stone your kids for talking back!)
Science provides answers, facts, religions provide best guesses from long ago people. I don't know about you, but I'd rather listen to a modern doctor explain why my back hurts than a glorified sheep herder who thinks it's evil spirits any day of the week!
Best,
Brett
Didn't you draw dinosaurs for a living? You have more connections and insight! The people who surround me usually only teach me about computer networking, lol.
ReplyDeleteAgain, I am not the "converting" type. At least not the type that I think is actually, borderline, stereotype. You made my day when you said that I don't act like most others. I take it as a huge compliment.I just hope something I said helps improve some of your sentiments towards people who practice religion.
the group of facts that support an idea still involve a *leap* as there's typically no evidence to marry the idea and the group of facts. The group of facts support it, but don't prove or disprove the idea otherwise it would be a "fact" as well rather than an "idea".
ReplyDeletescience doesn't answer everything, (yet?), but it does help paint a clearer picture.
I just believe that these "leaps" aren't as dissimilar as one would be led to believe.
Haha you can't make money drawing dinosaurs, even the best paleo artist of out time can't do it. I just do it for fun.
ReplyDeleteThe 'leap' isn't a leap. We know evolution happens, we know the big bang happened. What we are doing now is fine tuning what we know, any 'leaps' happened long ago and have since been rendered moot.
The leaps are the exact opposite. One is base don facts, the other well myths. Truths or stories. While stories might me more entertaining they aren't real.
Best,
Brett
@ Fatboy73
ReplyDeleteAgain, sorry you had so many bad experiences. Unfortunately, life is a funny thing and sometimes good people get stuck with the short end of the stick. A lot. I feel bad bro cus that ain't right. I'm sorry people take that stance when they hear you're atheist. It's not just you, some people are just opposed to what's different. That's just prejudice and unfortunately our species slings that foul stuff too often at people just because of a varying views.
there's more than 1 way to proselytize (sp?). sometimes being a good christian is just being a good example. I don't remember the bible saying that I had to verbally attack someone into changing their views.
Again, hopefully I just help introduce the idea that not all christians are the type, (stereotype?), that you've been describing.
@ Brett
ReplyDelete1st - WTH do you mean I can't make a living drawing dinosaurs?! WTH did I go to art school for?!!? Superheroes?!
2nd - Maybe "leap" isn't the best word? (it was bait, right?)
How about "hop"? "skip"? give me a break :-P
There's a missing link in the chain that seperates an "idea" from a "fact". I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm not. Seriously.
What I'm saying is that science, occasionally, also acknowledges the omission of evidence. that's it. A theory is a group of facts that support an idea, rather than definitely proving an idea as a fact.
P.S. I would never let my pastor near my back. I don't wanna accidentally discover an Eddie Long, lol
Brett-- You are definitely echoing what Maher was encouraging folks to do in Religulous (which I'm sure you've seen and no doubt enjoyed). Your point about Zeus makes perfect sense. And I appreciate the tempered manner with which you've had this discussion. I rarely have discussions with people about religion and don't get the sense that their blood pressure is rising.
ReplyDeleteI know other more overtly oppressed groups might not not like your statement that you are treated like a second class citizen, but you are spot on, and if there is a mobilization of a vocal, active contingent of atheists or folks who wanted a true separation of Church and State (I am the latter) this country could look pretty different in 20 or so years. I read a Michigan House Bill and was quite disturbed at the outpouring of religious devotion with which they open their legislative sessions.
Thanks for conducting these dialogues Brett. I loved what you said about conversing on a topic as "equals." I am not famous for anything (yet) but it seems like one of the annoyances would be that whatever made you famous would become the funnel through which most conversations came through, and that'd get pretty old pretty fast, I imagine.
T-F
I don't remember the bible saying that I had to verbally attack someone into changing their views.
ReplyDelete2Tim 4:2 "Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage with great patience and careful instruction."
1Cr 9:16 " For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!"
Matt 28:19 "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."
Rev 3:15‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot. 16 So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.
Unfortunately the bible does indeed instruct followers to aggressively spread the word.
And while you and others may not agree with it(thank you) millions do.
And please don't feel as if I'm attacking you or trying to be a jerk,I'm really not.Your apparent views are very refreshing and I wish more were the same.I'm just trying to validate a point.
@ Fatboy73
ReplyDeleteTHAT IS AWESOME!!!!
The bible does state to "preach", but I didn't interpret "aggressive" as a mandate in the verses provided.
Here's one for ya:
Definition of PREACH
intransitive verb
1: to deliver a sermon
2: to urge acceptance or abandonment of an idea or course of action; specifically : to exhort in an officious or tiresome manner
I'm no preacher. No no no, my friend. Not by a longshot. Not sure why today, (and yesterday), but I just felt compelled to try to clear the air that not all Christians are out for blood waving crucifixes unless you repent.
Some might call my view my statements as me "urging acceptance" of us Christians that don't fit that archetype. There's some of us out there that don't mind practicing our religion and not being a jerk about it.
Oh I agree not all Christians are of the stereotypical lot.In any group or institution your going to have individuals who have a different idea of how things should be done.
ReplyDeleteBUT!And it's a really big BUT!"like the lady in the third row of the church Choir be havin" BUT!
The Church as a whole or institution
subversively wants you to aggressively convert people and would gladly any day of the week and twice on Sunday impose it's views on anyone or anything they can.Followers are power,control and money and they desperately want that.
Look at Islam and it's believe or die views,The Christian church once held those same views and it would take very little on the part of the American government to let that happen again.
I'm going to stop there before I get accused of being a conspiracy nut,but it's something to think about ;)
That's people for ya. Any person in a position of "power" is susceptible to corruption and abuse. I mentioned Eddie Long cus that guy boggles my mind. How the heck does he still have a congregation?!
ReplyDeleteWe can't fix all those people who are corrupted and violent. I'll probably pray for them, but some of them are just nutz. Unfortunately these nutz are a recurring theme in history but I think it's all people in power, not just Christians.
I try not to let those crazy nutz mess up my day or corrode my views on life.
T-F,
ReplyDeleteI did love Religioulous, very funny. Nothing super complex in it but sometimes you need people to laugh before they will think. It's just unfortunate that Maher buys into the Peta crap and a lot of the 'holistic' nonsense:/
In these posts, there we are on equal footing. Everyone is treated the same. I don't expect or want special treatment and I won't look down on the fanboys. We are just people here. Now is you're argument is completely absurd I will attack, but how depend son your tone. Anthony we really nice and polite and seemed to really not get things that simply aren't common knowledge, like the difference between a theory and hypothesis. And while I've answered them before, it won't be the last time. Steve is a different example as I've known him for years and he likes to use Intelegent Design Creatioism, so while it sounds more sciencie its really just the presentation, BUT I do have to look into some of it since I don't read up on that. It makes my brain ache.
Because of the great debate about evolution in the US a lot of schools simply just don't cover what evolution is. Honestly I'd really like a comparative religion class in schools, just leave the science to the scientists and you can talk about religion to your blue in the face.
The prayers in the legislative sessions don't bother me as much as the religious voting their religion and ignoring all others of their constituency. While the right might vote you in you are obligated or should be to speak for your whole area.
Best!
Brett
Brett,
ReplyDeleteI’ve asked what type of proof you would accept many times; you don’t seem to have an answer other than “irrefutable scientific proof.” Of course there is not irrefutable scientific proof for pretty much anything. Heck even Quantuum Mechanics scientists would agree with that.
For instance if Christianity was true you would expect to find plenty of historical evidence. Okay, so we have more historical evidence for Christianity/Judaism than any other belief system. Does that count?
You usually say, “No it doesn’t count because it supports Christianity, and since Christianity isn’t true the evidence doesn’t count.”
How about the archeological evidence? Again, you say it doesn’t count because it supports Christianity. Archeological evidence which doesn’t support Christianity? You say, “Oh that stuff counts, it is all legit.” So what is the test? “If it supports Christianity, it is bunk, if it supports something that I like, well then it is all true.” What if the evidence is questionable and rejected by most scholars? “If it denies Christianity or is something crazy like Jesus’ tomb, then it is probably true.” So the archeological test is if it supports religion it is bad, if it denies religion it is good. I guess that does make it a bit tricky to give you many examples.
How about the personal stories of millions which collaborate it as being true? You say, “well that isn’t true, the people are brainwashed or deceived.”
Then is it possible you are brainwashed or deceived in your assumptions? Your answer, “Well no. It is impossible for natural materialistic evolutionists to be deceived, they aren’t stupid simpletons like religious folks.”
So you see the pickle we are in. You want proof of a kind which doesn’t exist for anything else and you also reject all evidence which does exist as being insufficient and you refuse to read or learn what the religions actually teach, you’d rather create a straw man argument or find the most poor example of a “religious” person and then reject all of Christianity.
Let’s be transparent here, it isn’t like you are an open minded individual coldly weighing the evidence and coming to an unbiased conclusion based off of the facts. You ridicule, you scoff, and you insult and then pretend to be making an educated decision.
So I have to ask, why the ongoing façade of being interested in a legit discussion?
Steve
Steve,
ReplyDeleteAs I have said before. Some kid of voice from above, something physical, like an angles skeleton, even something as 'simple' as all animals with completely different DNA. I'd even take different 'types' of animals with different DNA. Like a Dog and a wolf being similar to each other but vastly different from a bear. SOMETHING that is testable. Something that can have no other explanations. that last one would prove ID by the way. But this just isn't the case.
Steve, you are confusing evidence for your God and evidence for what people believe, 2 different things. I don't doubt that Christians have existed for almost 2,000 years. We have evidence for that. Just like we have evidence for Jews and Muslims, Egyptians and Summerians. What we don't have evidence for is what your religion says happened before they appeared you Genesis story. In fact all the evidence for that says religions got it wrong.
Just because millions says something in true doesn't make it so. Tell me Steve, is the Earth flat? Does the Sun revolve around the earth? All things that millions believed that were not true. What about Alla? Billions believe in him is he true? Shiva, Budda? have you ever even considered that MAYBE you might not be right and that is only 'true' because you want it to be?
It is entirely possible for me to be deceived, after all I believe in your religion for awhile;)
As I have said before Steve, the purpose of THESE posts is to show others like yourself that there is a growing population that do not think like you, do not want your religion telling us what to do and what is 'moral'. I'm happy to talk about why we don't find the 'evidence' you provide even remotely convincing, because it isn't evidence, it's stories, and feelings and wishes. That is not reality, the reality is much, much less cuddly and loving, the reality is cold and scary and refuse to even consider it because it frightens you. You lash out because by having others believe it justifies your belief. Why bother arguing with me about this stuff over and over again if I won't come to your thinking? Because if I ever do come to your way of thinking it will make you believe just that much more.
Best!
Brett
Oh and I make fun of it because it's funny. Because maybe people like you will see how silly it is and snap the hell out of it.
ReplyDeleteAlas this doesn't happen very often but I can BELIEVE it might happen;)
Bestest!
Brett
Brett, before you post some completely ignorant bullcrap story about all Christians believing that a pregnancy involving a brain dead child in the womb is equal to having an abortion if removed, I dare you to listen to close friends and agonize as they make the painful decision to induce labor and I dare you to console them after the funeral. I challenge you to sit with your empty ignorant opinions and console a woman who had to have a D&C to remove a late term miscarriage. I challenge you to deal with real people with real pain in real situations like I have had to. Apply your beliefs to real life sometime. Take a few gut shots for what you believe and see what happens.
ReplyDeleteI still consider you a close friend but remember this isn't all hypothetical philosophical discussions.
Steve
This I think you misread, loosing a child is most likely a horrid experience. I never said otherwise. Now to loose the Mother on top of that because someone refused to do the procedure? Why compound the sorrow? How is letting her die as well, better? Sounds way worse to me.
ReplyDeleteDo you think I think this is no big deal? Maybe you can't see the difference but I can. Losing someone you've been with for years and loosing a child that isn't even ready to be born... I hope you never get into that faith healing crap.
Are you trying to tell me that if I do these things I'll find Jesus?
Brett
Ok, So I just reread what you wrote Steve. I based this story off an actual incident. i don't have time to find it now but I got it off Scienceblogs. The women almost died because doctors didn't know or wouldn't preform the operation because of state abortion laws. Luckily a nurse called a doctor she know would do the surgery and she survived. Laws passed by the religious right.
ReplyDeleteThe point was that the religious people who believe abortions, even abortions that are needed to save the mothers life, are bad and should be outlawed, are forcing their religion on me, and on her. Should this kind of decision be the mothers?
I have nothing but simpathy for those who loose children like this.
Brett
Maybe I misread you.
ReplyDelete"How about this, a woman is 6 months pregnant, the placenta detaches and she starts to bleed out. Now the baby is basically dead, it's oxygen has been cut off, at the very least it will be brain dead. Now the religious would have you believe it's gods will and that an abortion is wrong, even now. How it this right, or moral? To let this woman die through no fault of her own, for her husband and children to loose her for a child that is already dead? That is why religion is bad, it leads to bad thinking, absolutes. How can you be trusted to make the right decisions when you disregard this life for some supposed eternal bliss?"
Your story of losing a baby and a woman bleeding out has nothing whatsoever at all to do with Christianity. This seems to be your modus operandi. Post something about a stupid person, say they did something because of faith, and poof all Christians are idiots.
That is not reality. If you are defending the above story as evidence against Christianity you are a liar. Your mis characterization is ugly and ignorant. I've dealt with a heart wrenching very similar situation and Christian principles saved the mother. You using this example as an example of how Christianity works is repugnant.
There are idiots who are Christians. There are Christians who believe a mixture of truth and lies. There are hypocritical Christians. And most evolutionists admit to praying at some time in their lives. Yeah, people are goofy and inconsistent. You know what it proves? All people are goofy and inconsistent.
Steve,
ReplyDeleteThat has everything to do with RELIGION and in the context, religious absolutes! It shows that EXTREMISTS views are not something most people can live by, but that RELIGION CAN lead to this way of thinking. I'm happy you find it repugnant I do too.
As for lying, maybe you should stop tossing words like that around when your religion is respossible for deaths like that, when Christian religious leaders DON'T go to Africa and try to get laws passed were just being gay will get you executed. Your own religion tells you to kill your own children of they mouth off to you. If you really believed in it I'll expect to see you on the news.
Evolutionists can still be religious Steve, PLEASE get the terms straight and stop reading into things.
Brett
@ Brett
ReplyDeleteThis blog got super busy and I'm not sure I like the direction of things. I just wanted to clarify one thing.
"Anthony we really nice and polite and seemed to really not get things that simply aren't common knowledge, like the difference between a theory and hypothesis."
I get it but I think something is getting lost in our dialogue. One more time?
hy·poth·e·sis/hīˈpäTHəsis/Noun
1. A supposition or proposed explanation made on the basis of limited evidence as a starting point for further investigation.
2. A proposition made as a basis for reasoning, without any assumption of its truth.
the·o·ry/ˈTHēərē/Noun
1. A supposition or a system of ideas intended to explain something, esp. one based on general principles independent of the thing to be explained: "Darwin's theory of evolution".
2. A set of principles on which the practice of an activity is based.
Fact - noun /fakt/
facts, plural
1. A thing that is indisputably the case
- she lacks political experience—a fact that becomes clear when she appears in public
- a body of fact
2. Used in discussing the significance of something that is the case
- the real problem facing them is the fact that their funds are being cut
3. A piece of information used as evidence or as part of a report or news article
4. The truth about events as opposed to interpretation
I don't agree that a theory is a fact. I believe a theory is also, if not more elaborate, a hypothesis. As such, I believe you echo the practice of taking a "leap/hop/skip" of faith or belief by believing in something that doesnt have the absolute evidence that you describe. It's just that you're willing to do that leap for science rather than for religion. I get that.
P.S. Whether you change your thinking is up to you, I am just trying to clarify a parallel here.
I think the closest thing you're getting to an angel's skeleton is going to be in "Lisa the Skeptic."
ReplyDeleteI thought that one of the best parts of Religulous was how straightforward its logic was. Plus, the fact that it was funny helps too.
At least in some schools (like the one I teach in) science teachers not only teach evolution, but also what sort of fiasco it caused / is causing in the religious world. As I was picking up copies one day, I saw a teacher's powerpoint print outs, and I was surprised and pleased at how they didn't shy away from laying it all out there.
I think the best thing that any person can be offered is the whole picture, the religious, the secular, but prior to that, be armed with a strong sense of self-confidence so that they don't NEED any institution to live a moral and decent life.
I grow so tired of viewpoints that are entirely based on fear (of what's different, of the "other" (Mosques in NYC, for instance) and yet these people (often legislators, as you said) should be representing or considering the multitude of views that exist...
@ Anthony
ReplyDelete"Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true."
I don't agree that a theory is a fact
ReplyDelete"The formal scientific definition of theory is quite different from the everyday meaning of the word. It refers to a comprehensive explanation of some aspect of nature that is supported by a vast body of evidence."
Not the same kind of theory your thinking about.scientific theory has completely different meaning :D
@ Fatboy73
ReplyDeleteThat definition states "supported" rather than "proven". I still believe that a theory is considered to be "unproven" by definition in both uses of the term.
A scientific theory comprises a collection of concepts, including abstractions of observable phenomena expressed as quantifiable properties, together with rules (called scientific laws) that express relationships between observations of such concepts. A scientific theory is constructed to conform to available empirical data about such observations, and is put forth as a principle or body of principles for explaining a class of phenomena.
A concept (substantive term: conception) is a cognitive unit of meaning—an abstract idea or a mental symbol sometimes defined as a "unit of knowledge," built from other units which act as a concept's characteristics.
They're similar and I think this reenforces the line of thinking I had when I said that they both have a "leap/hop/skip". I guess the difference is really what a person is willing to "leap" for.
Sorry guys,I will be back but I have to jump in my time machine to travel faster than the speed of light back in time to tell that Einstein idiot that his leap of faith/educated guess on that relativity thing was way off base.See ya ;)
ReplyDeleteHmmm... I think I see what's going on. Them science guys use a dated speak that doesn't always translate to tot he everyday. Anthony, I'm going to send you here. Hopefully this will answer your questions:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html
Basically, you are boiling down evolution into one thing when it's 2. That it happens is a fact. How it happens and why are the theory part.
Hope that helps.
Fatboy, I just got back, that man is a HOOT! And remind me never to bring up string theory!!!!!
Best,
Brett
Faith healers.
ReplyDelete@ - T- F -
ReplyDeleteI see where you're going.
@ Brett
Sorry you got confused. I wasn't at any point engaging conversation about evolution. I believe it happens too, lol.
@ Fatboy
ReplyDeleteLOL. WAAAAAY OFFF BAAASE. ;-)
can we throw out the theory of planned behavior too? we don't want anything that makes sense lingering around, do we? self-efficacy is a myth.
Since faith healing has been mentioned a time or two now, this is apropos:
ReplyDeletehttp://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110608/ap_on_re_us/us_faith_healing_trial_2
I wonder if y'all see the same issue that I see here though, in that someone who comes down hard on these parents is going to have to explain any pro-abortion stance he or she may have. In either case, the child being hurt/killed has no say in the matter due to parental beliefs/choices.
For what it's worth, I think the whole abortion debate in this country is a red herring-- it is the desire of both anti-abortion and "pro"-abortion individuals that there be ZERO abortions in any given year. It is just a matter of how to best deal with reducing the number of unwanted pregnancies as much as possible, and, in a delightful twist, those who want to make abortion illegal are often those who want abstinence to be the only form of birth control taught to young adults... it goes back to the earlier comments about folks be goofy an inconsistent.
Maybe I'm really misreading you Brett, but you seem to continue to group all religions together, that is general nonsense. And you continue to ascribe false claims to Christianity. That is specific nonsense.
ReplyDeleteYou continue to only have eyes for the faults without praising the good.
Until you are able to listen and repeat without distortion what the other side believes arguing religion is pointless.
You continue to misrepresent most religious beliefs. It is impossible to carry on a discussion because you don't understand Christianity enough to mount even a superficial dispute with any validity. If you actually could reject what Christians actually believe you would have more credibility in rejecting it. When you reject a distortion we are all just left sitting on our hands saying, "Well, I don't believe that either, but I guess if you want to rant against it go ahead."
That being said I need to offer an apology for my post yesterday, I used stronger language than needed. I will give you the benefit of the doubt because you don't know what you are talking about and therefore probably not a liar. The Christian faith would not act in the way you recounted when dealing with a hemorrhaging mother. I have to believe at some level you know that.
Steve
Steve.
ReplyDeleteI am lumping all religions together because they are all the same. No evidence to support any of them. Why shouldn't I? Or are you pissed because I didn't single out yours because you think it's special? It's not. Your religion provides nothing but lies. All the good it does... well I like to think people would help the poor regardless of trying to win points with your deity. There are plenty of shelters and the like that aren't religious, of course there are many religious institutions that kill people for heresy, being gay, ect. The fact that your doesn't do it ANYMORE at least in the US, isn't a selling point, it just means you can't get away with it.
I'm SOOOO tired of this. Because I wasn't YOUR kind of Christian I was therefor not a 'REAL' Christian and therefore that I reject that other religion means I didn't really reject your religion because I don't know what I'm talking about. Grow up. Stop acting like a petulant child and splitting hair. I reject all religions because there is NO evidence to support ANY of them, yours is not special it does not require 'special' knowledge of it.
I'm sorry Steve, the Christian faith does act like that and if you aren't man enough to acknowledge it then maybe you need to stop watching Fox news and go out into the real world. It's not like the liberals are making abortions harder to get, that's all you religious folk. Just like it's not the liberals who want to cut medicare, food stamps and unemployment. That's all right wing religious republicans. You like to think that it's not the religious who do this but it almost exclusively is. Maybe you need to look up what the word liar actually means, since I'm not the one distorting facts to make themselves feel better. If these laws didn't keep getting past I might think it's just a few Christians trying to get their way, but if you do the math, it's really not the case. If you want to be religious and follow all those laws that's fine, but leave the rest of us the fuck alone.
Brett
@ Brett
ReplyDeleteWhoa. Chill dude. It's just discussion, mmm kay?
What did you mean by "Because I wasn't YOUR Christian I was therefor not a 'REAL' Christian?" You obviously don't have to but to further discussion, and as a fan, I would appreciate if you did.
Also, Republicans are a political party. They may have those within the party that are religious, but they are not the "face" of the Christian faith. As such, you shouldn't misdirect any negative sentiments unfairly. I would liken that to me blaming you for Rob Liefeld's poor anatomy drawing. How? He was the face of comic books with that Calvin Klein commercial and often mis proportions body parts. Is that your fault because he was the "face" of comic books in the 90's?
Hi Anthony,
ReplyDeleteFor you and I it's just a discussion. Steve's slinging insults and not just at me. He's attempting to be subtle but he's not.
Steve believes that ONLY the Christians that worship the way he does, his 'type' or sect of Christian are the only REAL ones. All others are false. So if you're say a Catholic then you are not a real Christian to Steve. So when he says I was never a real Christian, since I was raised Catholic I never really gave HIS god a chance. It is funny since he'll include your sect when arguing how many Christians there are. Lying for Jesus is a very common thing for the uber religious.
Republicans are usually considered a party, unless it comes to religion where they almost overwhelmingly come down as Christian, they vote their faith. And it is true some Liberals are Christians as well, but the face of the Christians in this country to people of other faiths, or none, are Republicans. That is how they are getting things like anti gay marriage bills passed, anti abortion bills passed, voting away other rights and calling it democracy. The republican party is the party of the Christian faith in this country. It wasn't always the case but it is now.
If it's against the bible it's a republican talking and voting point. It's sad really, the old republicans were actually something I could get behind. I have a gun, I prefer small government... just a secular one.
You say that as a joke but I'm sure it's been said before, those fanboys can be brutal.
Best,
Brett
@ Brett.
ReplyDeleteThanks dude, that really clarified a lot of where the sentiments are stemming from. I guess I don't view republicans the same way, but I typically avoid politics whenever possible. I am not a fan of our government at all. I especially am not a fan of republicans (but neither are most New Yorkers in my area). Where the heck are you from?! I often find that churches and people vary from region to region and I'm just trying to get a better understanding of the type of people that marred your view on organized religion.
For what it's worth, I am not a fan of organized religion either. I don't believe in all of the policies of some of the churches. As such, I don't go to Church often to abstain myself from some of the personal beliefs that are too often intertwined with the messages they are supposed to be delivering.
What is upsetting is Christianity is not trying to win points with a deity. That is the exact opposite of Christianity. I’m not sure why you can’t at least grasp that. That after all is what all Christianity believes. It is based off of the founder’s teachings. If you don’t believe it then you have never examined and learned the central thrust of the work of the person of Jesus.
ReplyDeleteIf Christianity was as you continue to characterize it (like other religions), Jesus would not have been crucified. He would have come down, taught some pithy sayings and then said, “Try real hard to please God. Be a good person. Be a nice person.,” and then he would have flown away.
Jesus instead said, “I hate religion. I hate your religious practices. I hate your efforts to try to please God as if that is how you will gain acceptance.”
Christ said, “Stop all your trying to be good and all your doing “good” deeds as if that will earn you salvation. You are hopeless and your religion is offensive to me. You can’t earn salvation and your works gain you no favor with God.”
While all other religions say “do, do, do” Christianity says it has been already “done.” We add nothing to our salvation. It is a gift to be received. If you truly have received the gift it will change your heart so then out of a genuine thankfulness for God showing you mercy and grace, you in return show mercy and grace to others.
You are good not to earn salvation, but rather out of gratitude for what has been done for you. The two views are polar opposites; in one your own works secure your salvation (you are your own savior), in the other view your works are meaningless to secure salvation (you need a savior.)
Religion creates self righteous people who feel they are better than others because they alone have the truth, or miserable people who feel like they are constantly failing to live up to perfection.
Christianity creates followers who believe they are no better than anyone else, they can admit their flaws, they do not look down on others, and they do not look down on themselves; they have a security of purpose and worth given to them, not earned.
You must see that these two different views are opposites, they can’t be lumped together as being identical.
Oh and so you know I am an equal opportunity jerk, I am currently arguing for a better explanation and a fairer teaching on the topic of evolution in our Genesis series at church. It isn't making me real popular.
ReplyDeleteI just don't get along with anyone :(
Steve
I just thought of this and it may be helpful. Remember I'm not the only one saying there are fundamental differences in doctrine in Catholicism and mainline Christianity. The Catholics say it too! They are saying we believe differently and have historically held to a difference of opinion on works and salvation.
ReplyDeleteSo when you argue that you basically tried Christianity you are kind of saying you not only didn't understand Christianity real well, you may not have really understood the basis of your Catholic beliefs either.
Perhaps you want to reexamine one or both belief systems?