Some more with Dara Ó Briain, this time about science!
And remember, everytime you see a rainbow, it means god won't kill everything on the planet, including helpless animals, children and the elderly... AGAIN. That better Steve, LESS offensive?
These videos kind of touch on the difference between Christianity and Catholicism as a religion.
M.O.R.
Rereading your posts it sounds like you may come from or at least understand the Catholic faith. That is Brett’s background too, so it may be helpful if he heard from another Catholic, ex-Catholic, or at least someone who grew up around the Catholic faith the difference between religious Catholicism and actual Christianity.
I’m thinking in particular of the misconception that being a Christian is dependant upon our actions; that is, it is based off of what we do and don’t do it; in other words performance based. Our actions neither include us nor exclude us into being a Christian, there is no trying to be good, or be a nice person to gain God’s acceptance. There is also no legalism, or attempts to follow the rules and not do bad stuff to stay a Christian. I think that is where many of my Catholic friends get confused. The central idea is we are accepted by God’s grace apart from our attempts to do good and avoid evil, rather we need to embrace God, die to self, and let Him change us from the inside out, rather than attempting to fix ourselves or to be good nice people. We do good because we are accepted, not to earn acceptance. Because we are thankful we love God and out of that love we attempt to live in a way pleasing to Him because He has already died to earn our salvation-so we don’t have to, we add nothing to the saving work of God; in fact it is offensive to even imply we could. Doing good is proof God has accepted us, not the way to earn it.
M.O.R. do you think you could reword this in a way an ex-Catholic would understand to help Brett understand why Christianity is so different from religious information or religious rituals?
Oh, I get it Steve. You open your heart and god magically makes you a better person. Just like love. That's really all your conversion is, falling in love. Your church or pastor whips you into an emotional orgasm and oxytocin is released. Rinse and repeat and you are now in love with Jesus/god. You keep on with it because you get an emotional high it feels good.
The only problem with that is, that initial high wears off and you slide back into your own self yet you are still in love with Jesus. So all the old, we'll say dislikes, come out and since you think you are now a instrument of god that god is now in charge of what to dislike. even though it's really you.
It's just a difference of conversion, one is tempted with ideas of love and lust, the other with guilt. But after that you still have the same ideas on the religion. Well the Jesus part anyways.
I know what love is, it's a chemical reaction. I love my dogs, and my wife (and my old trans am) but I can step back knowing what it is and examine it. See it for what it really is, see how things move and change and how cultures are passed on. I can see the progression of ancestor worship move around that area and see how the different religions influence each other, and grow from each other. But that is not evidence for a god or any god. In fact it argues against it.
I get what you are saying Steve, but remember, the honeymoon period makes you stupid, and makes you do stupid things. So how can I even begin to trust what you say if you are stuck in that period? I can't because your not thinking, your reacting.
See, Steve that's why you can't relate to me. I know you think your religion is this grand thing. But I can see the baggage, I can learn from the swath of ex lovers it's had, they all tell the same story.
See Brett, that isn't it at all, you aren't even close. I guess that is why I'm kind of hoping M.O.R. might pop on and explain it better in a way you can understand. And if not in a way you understand at least help you to see how completely off the mark you are.
Still I get where you are coming from, you are looking at something which doesn't make sense to you and trying to squeeze it into some shape you can handle. Unfortunately your explanation doesn't fit the facts or experience of Christianity.
No Steve, you don't understand. How you were converted may be completely different than anyone else. The fact that you IGNORE all the bad stuff, and concentrait on the 'good' stuff (because I find how your religion treats gays and women horrible, even though you guys seem to like it) is totally like falling in love or Stockholm syndrome. How else can you explain loving a god that kills and abuses his followers? You can't see it because you are too close to it. You see what you want to see because it makes you happy and your brain rewards you for it with more oxytocin. This is science, there is evidence for this. You aren't special or different from everyone else on the planet. It's a form of brian washing, a warped version of pair bonding, it comes from our fear of being alone as we are social creatures. Why do you think science does studies and doesn't do things on themselves (or usually doesn't) because your feelings can warp the experiment. You can't be objective because you are totally invested in this. Only others who are NOT part of your religion can look at it objectively. It's why detectives are removed from cases that they have a personal connection to.
And if M.O.R. is a Catholic, or was, how is he going to explain what that small fringe group you belong to believes (cause he's not one of your 'true Christians')? Just because he believe in a god doen't mean he automatically 'gets' what you mean. There isn't a secret code.
Steve, I don't care what you believe or how you think it's so different than how anyone else came to believe. What I want is EVIDENCE that what you believe is real and true. That you or 600 billion people think it's true isn't how I think or how science or logic works. You need evidence to support your claims. Things that can't be explained any other way than by a god, and it cant just be any god it HAS to be specific to your god if you are to claim your religion is true. And to date there is no compelling evidence for this, which is why I am an Atheist.
I'm not sure if this is getting through to you, that your religion taints how you see the world, this makes you biased towards anything that disagrees with you. I now you'll think I'm biased as well, and it can be argued that I am. But I am at least willing to test the evidence that you present and look at it logically.
Steve, yes I was raised Catholic. And yes, I still believe in a God/ Deity/ Allah whatever you want to call this, but I no longer consider myself Catholic. I believe myself to be a Deist/ Theist, whatever you want to call me (that stays in the General range of acceptable language ;)). I accept the majority of belief systems (outside of Scientology or other Cults. Why?? Because they are committing the same crimes as other religions, the only thing being they do not acknowledge it, and instead try to cover it up. Moreso than even the Catholic Church did). My spirituality is broad, as I believe that one must learn from all religions, and none. There is a certain level of good advice within all and none, like even the simple task of taking time out of the day to think about your life and your lot.
I do not wish to explain to Brett, or anyone, about religion, and one's beliefs, or even trying to explain my own angle. I will debate with Brett, and others on this board, and listen to each and others opinions, but I will not try to force my views on him or others. I will debate against certain topics, or areas I feel are misinterpreted or misconstrued. Sometimes, and I include myself here, we think within the box, and not outside it. This can hamper our thinking.
I will not debate Brett on God or religion. Ask me to argue with him about our favourite artists, or writers, and I'll be there with boots on. Ask me to debate with him on legends and mythology (not relgion(, and hoo boy, will I be there to tell you whata werewolf or vampire should look like.
I'm sorry Steve, but in terms of religion, I will not even attempt to change anyone's beliefs. We all do good, some of us just do it of our own free will.
Thanks for popping on. Maybe I did not explain my desire in you sharing. My desire is to explain so Brett can understand. Most of what he argues against isn't accurate or what Catholics specifically or Christians in general believe.
Brett doesn't understand Christian beliefs, but does have a Catholic upbringing, I was hoping you could help him at least understand what he is rejecting as he often rejects a straw man argument.
Brett, The chemical reaction idea just doesn't fit as a cause, though I imagine it could be an effect.
These videos kind of touch on the difference between Christianity and Catholicism as a religion.
ReplyDeleteM.O.R.
Rereading your posts it sounds like you may come from or at least understand the Catholic faith. That is Brett’s background too, so it may be helpful if he heard from another Catholic, ex-Catholic, or at least someone who grew up around the Catholic faith the difference between religious Catholicism and actual Christianity.
I’m thinking in particular of the misconception that being a Christian is dependant upon our actions; that is, it is based off of what we do and don’t do it; in other words performance based. Our actions neither include us nor exclude us into being a Christian, there is no trying to be good, or be a nice person to gain God’s acceptance. There is also no legalism, or attempts to follow the rules and not do bad stuff to stay a Christian. I think that is where many of my Catholic friends get confused. The central idea is we are accepted by God’s grace apart from our attempts to do good and avoid evil, rather we need to embrace God, die to self, and let Him change us from the inside out, rather than attempting to fix ourselves or to be good nice people. We do good because we are accepted, not to earn acceptance. Because we are thankful we love God and out of that love we attempt to live in a way pleasing to Him because He has already died to earn our salvation-so we don’t have to, we add nothing to the saving work of God; in fact it is offensive to even imply we could. Doing good is proof God has accepted us, not the way to earn it.
M.O.R. do you think you could reword this in a way an ex-Catholic would understand to help Brett understand why Christianity is so different from religious information or religious rituals?
Oh, I get it Steve. You open your heart and god magically makes you a better person. Just like love. That's really all your conversion is, falling in love. Your church or pastor whips you into an emotional orgasm and oxytocin is released. Rinse and repeat and you are now in love with Jesus/god. You keep on with it because you get an emotional high it feels good.
ReplyDeleteThe only problem with that is, that initial high wears off and you slide back into your own self yet you are still in love with Jesus. So all the old, we'll say dislikes, come out and since you think you are now a instrument of god that god is now in charge of what to dislike. even though it's really you.
It's just a difference of conversion, one is tempted with ideas of love and lust, the other with guilt. But after that you still have the same ideas on the religion. Well the Jesus part anyways.
I know what love is, it's a chemical reaction. I love my dogs, and my wife (and my old trans am) but I can step back knowing what it is and examine it. See it for what it really is, see how things move and change and how cultures are passed on. I can see the progression of ancestor worship move around that area and see how the different religions influence each other, and grow from each other. But that is not evidence for a god or any god. In fact it argues against it.
I get what you are saying Steve, but remember, the honeymoon period makes you stupid, and makes you do stupid things. So how can I even begin to trust what you say if you are stuck in that period? I can't because your not thinking, your reacting.
See, Steve that's why you can't relate to me. I know you think your religion is this grand thing. But I can see the baggage, I can learn from the swath of ex lovers it's had, they all tell the same story.
Best,
Brett
See Brett, that isn't it at all, you aren't even close. I guess that is why I'm kind of hoping M.O.R. might pop on and explain it better in a way you can understand. And if not in a way you understand at least help you to see how completely off the mark you are.
ReplyDeleteStill I get where you are coming from, you are looking at something which doesn't make sense to you and trying to squeeze it into some shape you can handle. Unfortunately your explanation doesn't fit the facts or experience of Christianity.
No Steve, you don't understand. How you were converted may be completely different than anyone else. The fact that you IGNORE all the bad stuff, and concentrait on the 'good' stuff (because I find how your religion treats gays and women horrible, even though you guys seem to like it) is totally like falling in love or Stockholm syndrome. How else can you explain loving a god that kills and abuses his followers? You can't see it because you are too close to it. You see what you want to see because it makes you happy and your brain rewards you for it with more oxytocin. This is science, there is evidence for this. You aren't special or different from everyone else on the planet. It's a form of brian washing, a warped version of pair bonding, it comes from our fear of being alone as we are social creatures. Why do you think science does studies and doesn't do things on themselves (or usually doesn't) because your feelings can warp the experiment. You can't be objective because you are totally invested in this. Only others who are NOT part of your religion can look at it objectively. It's why detectives are removed from cases that they have a personal connection to.
ReplyDeleteAnd if M.O.R. is a Catholic, or was, how is he going to explain what that small fringe group you belong to believes (cause he's not one of your 'true Christians')? Just because he believe in a god doen't mean he automatically 'gets' what you mean. There isn't a secret code.
Steve, I don't care what you believe or how you think it's so different than how anyone else came to believe. What I want is EVIDENCE that what you believe is real and true. That you or 600 billion people think it's true isn't how I think or how science or logic works. You need evidence to support your claims. Things that can't be explained any other way than by a god, and it cant just be any god it HAS to be specific to your god if you are to claim your religion is true. And to date there is no compelling evidence for this, which is why I am an Atheist.
I'm not sure if this is getting through to you, that your religion taints how you see the world, this makes you biased towards anything that disagrees with you. I now you'll think I'm biased as well, and it can be argued that I am. But I am at least willing to test the evidence that you present and look at it logically.
Best,
Brett
Steve, yes I was raised Catholic. And yes, I still believe in a God/ Deity/ Allah whatever you want to call this, but I no longer consider myself Catholic. I believe myself to be a Deist/ Theist, whatever you want to call me (that stays in the General range of acceptable language ;)). I accept the majority of belief systems (outside of Scientology or other Cults. Why?? Because they are committing the same crimes as other religions, the only thing being they do not acknowledge it, and instead try to cover it up. Moreso than even the Catholic Church did).
ReplyDeleteMy spirituality is broad, as I believe that one must learn from all religions, and none. There is a certain level of good advice within all and none, like even the simple task of taking time out of the day to think about your life and your lot.
I do not wish to explain to Brett, or anyone, about religion, and one's beliefs, or even trying to explain my own angle. I will debate with Brett, and others on this board, and listen to each and others opinions, but I will not try to force my views on him or others. I will debate against certain topics, or areas I feel are misinterpreted or misconstrued.
Sometimes, and I include myself here, we think within the box, and not outside it. This can hamper our thinking.
I will not debate Brett on God or religion. Ask me to argue with him about our favourite artists, or writers, and I'll be there with boots on. Ask me to debate with him on legends and mythology (not relgion(, and hoo boy, will I be there to tell you whata werewolf or vampire should look like.
I'm sorry Steve, but in terms of religion, I will not even attempt to change anyone's beliefs. We all do good, some of us just do it of our own free will.
M.O.R.,
ReplyDeleteThanks for popping on. Maybe I did not explain my desire in you sharing. My desire is to explain so Brett can understand. Most of what he argues against isn't accurate or what Catholics specifically or Christians in general believe.
Brett doesn't understand Christian beliefs, but does have a Catholic upbringing, I was hoping you could help him at least understand what he is rejecting as he often rejects a straw man argument.
Brett,
The chemical reaction idea just doesn't fit as a cause, though I imagine it could be an effect.