Something that always bothers me is the fact that these religions start with one man, or one sect in ONE place, and then they spread. If there was a god like being trying to, for lack of a better word, teach us, why through so limited means? Wouldn't sending lots of Jesus's or Moses's be far more effective? And it makes you think, what about all those other people in China and the Americas? Save a few, but fuck the rest of the world as I sit on my omniscient throne? Who really cares about them, as these select few or 'chosen' (who have shown to be complete idiots over and over again) are the ones I'll focus on. If we're all Gods children then why is there even a chosen people? He has favorites? Now that sounds a bit petty for a God. Why did he never reveal himself to anyone but a few and have them spread his 'word'? He would have to have known that his messengers wouldn't be able to get to certain places, why not send more? Why and why did it take so long? I mean if this is the word of God, why it is taking over 900-2,000 years to spread across the globe? It's not like humans aren't everywhere now. Why, upon reading it or hearing it, if it's so true is the reader not magically overcome with the magical god love?
But Brett you say, God works in mysterious way, we can't know the mind of God, blah, blah. blah... The Christian God appears to have favorites, he breaks his own rules and takes away a persons 'free will' (Pharaoh's) and then punishes an entire people for it. So he's a liar, and a mass murderer. He seems to like to watch people get tortured, making the Hebrews wander in a desert for 40 years, when it takes a matter of days to walk across it. Letting his 'chosen people get eaten by lions, and then knocking up a young woman and forcing her son to do YOUR bidding, which includes getting tortured and then killed. All to redeem the actions of a few people (who never existed) for eating a fruit you told them not to. A fruit, with some magic knowledge, and you punish them, and all their descendents. Of course they hadn't really been bad before so they really had no idea what would happen to them, but you punished them anyways. Huh, this god sounds a lot like the Greek God Zeus. Petty and temperamental, a bully in the classic sense with a whole lot of ego stroking needed. So can we really not know his mind? He sounds very human to me. In fact, completely human, kind of like a dictator and a bit like Hitler with his 'chosen' people. See what I did there, I tossed that Hitler crap back in your face! Served! And the Allah? Well it's funny how he ALWAYS has the same ideas as Mohammed, if Mo want something then suddenly Allah's OK with it. In a way it's even more outlandish to me than Christianity.
So if these 'gods' are simply peoples wants and desires then we sure as hell can know their minds. And they appear to be incredibly shortsighted, mean, violent and stupid. That sure sound like something I'd worship! Sign me up!
Oh, and think about this religious people. I know this will be hard as you never bother to even consider your religion's faults, or other point of view, but what if YOU were the minority religion and say the Muslims or the evil Gnusaders were the majority? What if they decided that only the Muslim faith OR no faith at all were the only legal 'religions'? You'd be pissed right, and thankfully our constitution protects the minority from the will of the majority so EVERYONE is equal. Then why are you doing the same fucking thing with your no gay marriage 'laws'? It has NO EFFECT on YOU so get off your fucking soup box and back the fuck off. It's disgraceful and disgusting, it's also illegal, unconstitutional and un-American. And if you bring up any stupid animal shit I will find a way to slap you. WHatever 2 or 2 or 13 adults want to do in their own home is fine as long as everyone agrees to it. It's NOT your business. so leave it the hell alone.
OK, I feel a bit better not
Brett,
ReplyDeleteYou raise many good points; again this is where a knowledge of the basic story of the Bible, an understanding of God’s character, and the history of man really help to illuminate the wisdom and mercy God shows in dealing with people.
I’m not sure if you currently can get there using your line of thinking; your basic argument seems to rely on a belief you are wiser than God and have a much better plan for how to run a religion. It is an interesting idea to explore but if you use it as the lens to look at actual Christianity it will leave you hopelessly mired in doubt and distrust. Usually it is better to form opinions on the back end of research rather than using them as your foundation for investigating.
Maybe one helpful bit of information for you is to compare your idea of multiple Jesuses being a better solution than the historical idea of one Jesus. There are numerous problems with the idea of several Jesuses, but the big one for you might be to realize Jesus did not come to prove God existed, Jesus did show the character of God-but he was to be the sacrifice for sin; this was central to His mission on earth-your scheme of more being better is kind of foolish when you consider his actual mission.
BUT, you are correct-if His mission was to spread the gospel, to show the love of the Father; then it would be helpful to have many people doing the groundwork, almost like many agents working toward the same goal with the same calling. Imagine a bunch of people who had experienced God’s love and now were eager to share that love with the World. Imagine a world, which rejected God’s morality and instead wanted to do whatever seemed right to them or felt good to them. In short, imagine people who think they know better than God on how to do life, family, sex, society, culture, etc, then take those same self-satisfied people and let them meet others who were once just like them but now changed because God had radically changed their hearts, their wills, and their character. I think that would be a powerful testimony to the power, goodness, and love of God. When done according to God’s will that is what the Church is to be, sure there are some mistakes and bad examples, but they are in the minority-unless you only have eyes to see the bad.
Actually Steve, you missed the point. he POINT was he basically said screw everyone but these few people. I'll save them and then toss out the rest. If Christianity. or Islam had appeared independently around the world at the same time... THAT would be evidence for a god. That didn't happen.
ReplyDeleteAnd it isn't making assumptions before. It's after. WAY after. And I wouldn't want to run a religion, it's demeaning to people.
As to me or others knowing more about life and sex, than god? Yeah, We do. all that crap that the religions cling to is bad for humans and keeps you ignorant. Anything that keeps you from the actual facts and endangers you is BAD for you.
Best,
Brett
I don't know much about religion, but I know that taking all the Bibles in a Barnes and Noble store over to the fiction section will get you "asked to leave."
ReplyDeleteSo your point Brett is by creating a religion where all people are offered equal acceptance by God and all have the same possibility of going to heaven, that Jesus by starting this religion and then telling his followers to share the message with every soul alive, by doing that, Jesus was screwing people over?
ReplyDeleteReally?
Or are you saying leaving the task of spreading the Gospel to temporal finite people and expecting Christian converts to seek the lost was a poor basis for a religion?
Are you in a round about way asking if it is fair than some have never heard the Gospel?
I believe he's saying Steve, that for the one true religion of an all powerful deity, that everyone on earth apparently needs as to not burn in hell for an eternity, it sure as hell took a long time to spread.
ReplyDeleteAnd being an all powerful deity why the hell didn't he do it himself, just show up in blaze of glory instead of letting followers do the footwork.
Why? because with out followers to spread the message there is no God. It has been stated that if humanity were to start over with all traces of existing religion
wiped out. Humanity would most likely redevelop gods and religion, but it sure wouldn't be Christianity or any of the existing religions.
Fatboy is correct.
ReplyDeleteHe basically left people unsaved for thousands and thousands of years. Ignored them, like he simply doesn't care. Or that he didn't even know they were there!
You ask why I ignore the good and look at the bad? SOMEONE has too, as you're eyes are far to veiled to see past Jesus loves you. Your god only loves certain people, he ignores others and damns them for not 'knowing' about him.... nice.
Do you actually think of the big picture Steve are you simply happy to be in the club?
Scy,
Funny! But that might not have anything to do with the joke;P
Best!
Brett
If the God of the Bible did exist, I would not worship him.
ReplyDeleteWhy on earth would you worship such a tyrant, a capricious dickhead who will send you to hell for not worshiping Him or believing as the Bible instruct?
Does the punishment for hell fit any crime that any person could do?
Eternal torture is far greater a crime than anything we can do in our lives. Yes, this God is worse than Hitler on a magnitude that we can't even imagine!
Why would you worship someone who would do that to you?
Talk about an abusive relationship!
But then the argument always is, you don't get sent to hell, you send yourself to hell.
Really?
I thought God was all powerful.
If he actually loved humanity as much as you say, He certainly wouldn't allow you to send yourself to hell. And if He is all powerful, then the argument is merely that of semantics. Whether you send yourself or not, God, if He is all powerful could prevent you from going to hell. So He sends you no matter what-- if we accept that God is all powerful.
And the idea that He had to come in human form and be tortured to death in order to redeem humanity also makes no sense. If God loved humanity, He could have saved humanity in any way He wanted. He would not need to come in human form and be tortured to death.
I will not worship such a cruel God.
Even if He did exist.
I'd be happy to be sent to be tortured for eternity than accept that such a monster would be worthy of even my faintest praise.
I went trough this very process several years ago (starting in 2005):
ReplyDeletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nU6iwY5cGE&feature=relmfu
It's very hard to do, especially when everyone you know believes.
Okay Brett, I thought for a minute I misunderstood you, but I think I was right on point with my first post. Really, if you understood the big picture of the Bible-the major narrative themes you would see it is quite effective for revealing God’s character, offering people a chance to know Him, it deal with moral and spiritual issues, and creates guidelines for a better society. By not understanding God’s character, God’s will, God’s methods, or what the Judeo-Christian faith actually has accomplished you are free to continually find fault with it. It is just odd to watch you week after week attack a misunderstanding and a false view of a book which you haven’t bothered to read or understand.
ReplyDeleteRetrieverman, you state “Why on earth would you worship such a tyrant, a capricious dickhead who will send you to hell for not worshiping Him or believing as the Bible instruct? Does the punishment for hell fit any crime that any person could do?”
These are interesting comments, and pretty comment sentiments leveled against the God of the Bible by critics.
What might help you is to remember God created you, God owns every second of time and every atom of existence. By rights, you are His. This is where most people jump ship-they don’t want to be subordinate to anyone or anything- we are all rebels at a heart level. I spent half of my life not liking the idea of God being over me so I lived in defiance of his rule. Liking or disliking a fact is not a good basis for denying the truth. If you accept this key point we can have a conversation, if you reject out of hand anything you don’t like then it is pointless to discuss-facts, logic, and evidence will be pointless if the only criteria is “do I like it or not.”
again Thanks for everyone sharing their views and being level headed.
pretty common not pretty comment, I must be tired.
ReplyDeleteSteve,
ReplyDeleteSo I read about him and get one impression, and you read about him an get another correct? Do you not see this as odd? What I read about him turns me off, he is not someone I would want to know. But if he's perfect, how is that even possible? He should be all things to all people. Which he clearly is not if he's someone I would actively avoid in real life.
And there is no evidence to show god created anyone. Until you get over this or provide some compelling evidence your argument is only something you feel to be true not anything close to an actual fact.
We aren't rejecting your views or your religion because we don't like it, we reject it because there is no evidence to support it. Until you get what that means you will never understand why we think religion is BSC.
Brett
What might help you is to remember God created you, God owns every second of time and every atom of existence. By rights, you are His.
ReplyDeleteWhy on earth would "remembering" something like this help. Why at all when Retrieverman, in his first sentence stated that he believes your god doesn't exist, and even if he did he still would not be worthy of praise and worship.
You come right out and say, even though you are the one posting comments and disagreements on a sight that makes no pretense about where it stands on the issues on God and religion, that the only way we can have a " real conversation" is for us to put aside our beliefs and understanding to cater to your belief in an almighty, loving god. The only way to have a real understanding is for us to say "Oh OK. We'll humor you. There's a God and he owns us lock, stock and barrel.
I really, truly, want to know why you post on these subjects Steve. Why when you well know, that if you presented a single, logical, rational argument or viewpoint. we would be more than happy to discuss and take into consideration.
But all you do week after week, is continually tell us that we don't understand a very simple religious premise, quote scripture to us, give assertions based on text that we hold no stock in, and remind us to "remember" what the same book we don't believe to be accurate says that god says.
It truly boggles my mind and any enlightenment you can give, would great Steve.
Fatboy it would help because it is consistent with the Biblical view of God if you like it or not. If you are going to hate God, that is your decision. If you do not like God, that too is your decision. You are free to do so. BUT, in rejecting Him do not try to misrepresent Him.
ReplyDeleteThe Christian view of God is He came up with the idea of existence and granted life as a gift. If this is true, if all of reality is His-then it makes absolute sense that He would be allowed to make moral rules for how His creation is to conduct itself. It would also be foolish to hate Him, but enjoy the gift of life. Furthermore if the Bible is true, God not only made us, but even when we do not act correctly He is willing to forgive to the extent He will suffer and die for us.
Sure go ahead and hate God, but have the decency to hate a Biblical consistent view of God without distorting His character traits as they are recorded.
You can't reject Him and also recreate Him to be an ogre or a boogey man.
Something can be true and not liked. Even if God is not real to you, at least dislike the true picture of HIm presented in the Bible. That Fatboy was my point. The Bible portrays God in a consistent manner which follows logic and reason if you read it.
"You can't reject Him and also recreate Him to be an ogre or a boogey man."
ReplyDeleteHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA! No need to recreate him, he's already an ogre and boogeyman. Anyone who kills everything on the planet is NOT a good person/thing. Man they REALLY have you, ONE OF US, ONE OF US!
"Something can be true and not liked. Even if God is not real to you, at least dislike the true picture of HIm presented in the Bible. That Fatboy was my point. The Bible portrays God in a consistent manner which follows logic and reason if you read it."
Are you doing standup now? Man that is so funny!!! Logic and reason.... I think I have tears in my eye!
There is no logic and reason in the bible, well maybe the begats.... Have you even read it? Or do you not understand what logic and reason mean?
Brett
Again Brett, as someone who has read the Bible, studied its origins, and researched the cultures and people it intersects with-I can tell you it does paint a consistent picture. If your logic leads you to believe by not reading or understanding the Bible you have a clearer interpretation of its subject matter then I am very happy to stick to my "illogical" approach of actually reading it.
ReplyDeleteGod is shown as absolutely Holy, absolutely loving, and amazingly merciful. If you put truth, goodness, morality, honesty, integrity, and righteousness as high standards to judge man's actions against-you see a very loving wonderful God.
If you desire a concept of God who doesn't have moral standards and is happy to let you do whatever (and you confuse that for your idea of love-absentee parenting of a a sorts- a holy genie who should try to make you happy, never tell you no, and never hold you accountable)then you will be disappointed because the real God isn't like your made up one.
So if you see all punishment as illogical-are you against our legal system? the prison system? disciplining children? stopping the brutalization of children? genocide? If God's standards of morality are so horrible to you, what is your better plan?
Steve
funny not, my word verification was "us with art n poo"
sounds like a great blog title
As someone who's tried to read the bible 3 time and stopped because of all the BS, I think you over OVERLOOKING anything that might make you question it. And as I have tried to get you to question it and you simply refuse to even attempt to try, I wouldn't take anything you have to say as even remotely honest. As your line: "God is shown as absolutely Holy, absolutely loving, and amazingly merciful." shows... A merciful god wouldn't damn his followers for eternity. An angry spiteful god does that... like Zeus.
ReplyDelete"If you put truth, goodness, morality, honesty, integrity, and righteousness as high standards to judge man's actions against-you see a very loving wonderful God."
WHAT?!? Are you fricken kidding me? Now I think you're just messing with me cause you obviously haven't read the same bible (or parts of it) as I have... By any chance are you following the Buddy Christ?
See, if there was a god, he/she would have to be held to a HIGHER moral standard than a regular old human... I see NONE of that in your god. What I see is a very angry god, an abusive god who placates his toys with his 'son' and some lame story of redemption for something they didn't do or have control of.
You god is not the basis for our legal system. And I never said no punishments. You are under the assumption that people like me just want everyone to run amuck. I have repeatedly said that we have morals and a legal system that was not inspired by your religion. Other cultures have done this over and over, without the help of your god. So why is he soooo needed again? Human have created their rules, and their punishments. No deity needed, like that ridiculous tax/divorce statement, the rules are already in place. There is no need for a better plan... unless you want to add that the religious people need to keep their noses OUT of others personal lives... We have a system, it works for the most part. At least we aren't stoning people or keeping slaves anymore.
Brett
Steve,
ReplyDeleteIf you think eternal torture is a just punishment, then you're a pretty wicked person.
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ReplyDelete