An Atheist sign was stolen from the capitol building of Illinois. This is not the first time this has happened this year, it also happened in the capitol of Washington. Both states have been getting complaints from who, you guessed it the Christians. In Washington the Christians sued the State last year to get a nativity scene put up. The State settled and in the settlement they now allow ANYONE to put up a display, this year an Atheist groups did just that. But I have to wonder, if we are supposed to get our morals from on high and these Christians are really so holy, why they can't reist the urge to steal. I mean this should be an easy one, but I guess their morals apply only to their way of thinking, not to any one elses. You fight for the right to display your religion on government property but pitch a hissy and actually steal from someone else trying to do the same thing. Nice, how very religious of you.
Now I think the sign the Atheists put up is a bit inflammatory, but I think that's the point. To get all to see that maybe the government should keep neutral on this as it is supposed to. No religious (or non religious) displays on state property. The sign might be a bit over the top, but you don't see the Atheists steeling things from the nativity displays. (On a side note, someone wants to stick up a Festivus Pole as well. I think THAT would be funny and everyone would like it... well everyone except the Catholic League and Poppa Bear.)
For the record, the Christians took the holiday from the pagans, they had the decorated trees and yule logs long before the Christians showed up. These are symbols of the winter solstice festival. It is known that Jesus (if real) would have been born late spring, early summer. Christmas has now turned back into a secular holiday, a time to get together with friends and family, eat and exchange gifts.
So is their a war on Christmas? Nope, it's all in Poppa Bear's head. The reason people prefer Happy Holidays now is that it's pretty much all inclusive as there are a number of holidays for a number of faiths all around the same time.
Best,
Brett
15 comments:
So much is wrong with this story. First the Freedom from Religion wackos should know better than to pee on everyone else's parade. Just because something is legal does not make it moral or right. Second no one knows who stole the sign. It sounds like an inside job to me; no one working there wants to look at some lame grab for attention aimed at hurting people's holiday cheer. Third, same as point 2, no one knows who took the sign. To say that it had to be a Christian is nonsence; it could of anyone who likes the season of Christmas. Bah humbug indeed, someone needs a pint of eggnog, a copy of Dickens' A Christmas Carol, and a heaping dose of manners and common sense.
This just hit me...
I guess the other possibility is that the Freedom From Religion folks stole the sign themselves so they could blame the Christians. It is pretty obvious that the only reason they took part in this publicity stunt was to mock people of faith. The fact they blame Christians for taking the sign without a shred of evidence shows who the real hypocrites are.
If you had actually gone to their website and looked at what you all nice loving Christians have been saying you wouldn't be saying that.
The point is and always is that government and religion should NEVER intertwine. It's not like there aren't enough Nativity scenes around all the churches and peoples houses were they belong. I'm happy to piss on your parade if you keep shoving it in my face when I ask you nicely to keep it to yourself.
They indeed might have done it themselves, they tend to be quite cleaver;) But look at all the press they got because the Christians needed something to complain about.
Best,
Brett
Oh and Eggnog is gross.
Brett
Just thought I'd let you see what your fellow Christians have been saying:
http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/2008/12/kentucky_lawsuit_prompts_stupi.php#more
Yeah, they seem like completely lovely people;)
Brett
Hmm, those are some pretty nasty comments, but that atheist sign is pretty inflammatory too, so I could understand the frustration of those Christians, being one myself. However, that said, I think both sides are acting pretty childish. Atheists, if you wanna put that sign up, go ahead, but show a little class and don't pick the holiday season. And Christians, saying stupid crap like "I wanna rip you to pieces" is hardly in going with Jesus' philosophy.
The way I view it, God gave people free will, and they are exercising it, so both sides, just go have a beer and relax.
Mark,
None of this would have happened if the Christians hadn't forced the state to put up their Nativity scene. As I said I hope the whole reason they put up that sign (the ones on buses in London and in DC were much better) to to get everyone to stop putting up signs on government property.
I know you might not get this but all the Christian stuff bombards us constantly. For you being Christian it's sort of background noise, but if you're not a Christian it's all over. After awhile it gets to you. The only reason why this was done at this time is because they put up their Nativity scene now. It's a response to Christians forcing their opinion on other ... again. You might think it's in poor taste to do it now, but if it gets people to actually think I'm all for it.
What's with all the booze?;)
Best,
Brett
Perhaps my perspective is a bit skewed being a Christian, but I like to think I'm a reasonable guy too. But I have to ask whether it bothers you more to see a nativity scene or it bothers a religious person to see someone(in this case)really trash the foundations of that person's belief.
I get that this is more of a message about the separation of church and state, and to that I actually agree. I think they are 2 entities that shouldn't be lumped together.
I don't know, lol, I guess its the harshness of the sign and the equally harsh reaction of these Christians (on that site you posted) that really bothers me, gives a bad impression of all Christians not to mention us more reasonable Christians(a shocker, I know, we DO exist ;)).
You think it is tough being an Atheist and being bombarded with Christian messages? You should try being a Christian and living in America where you are constantly bombarded with anti-Christian newspaper articles, movies, books, t-shirt slogans, etc. Or maybe you see the point is we all have different beliefs and we learn to tolerate others to a certain degree.
Christmas, the holiday we are celebrating...the central message is about what took place in a manger. It is a historical event and a historical fact. So you don't have to believe in the power of Jesus or worship him in a religious way, but you can realize it is a holiday centered on a historical event and therefore government grounds are fare game for displays of historical events. Even the Freedom of Religion people have to be able to see the reasoning there.
I think the people getting the good press from your links are the FFR folk, not the Christians. Still most people realize the majority of Christians they interact with in real life (the ones who you see with your eyes rather than read about on your monitor) are love caring individuals. Apparently there is also a strongly vocal online bizarro bunch of Christians who conveniently show up whenever a group like the FFR is looking for someone to tar and feather.
Bottom line-Christmas is about Christ. Celebrate the holiday as you choose, but interact in love with those you disagree with. Nativity scenes are not inflammatory-it is the individuals’ choice to view them as either religious or historical or both.
-Steve
Hi Mark,
You seem like a perfectly reasonable guy:)
I'll answer your question as honestly as possible. When I see a Nativity scene at a Church or on someone lawn, it's not a big deal, I shake my head at what I believe is a mass brain washing forced upon you as children by your parents. I see a waste of people's time and money but it's there money to waste. I see fear beating down reason and knowledge. But when I see it out in a public place I see you're fear being forced on me. telling me to conform to YOUR way of thinking. I see the collective intellegence of the US go out the window. You see the sign as an attack on your religion, I see your religion as a personal attack on me and the human race.
The thing is I know there are regular perfectly cool non pushy Christians but they never speak up against the far right fear mongers. You know it's not like we Atheists are a new thing, we've been around forever, we've let the religious walk all over us by keeping quiet for years.. well we've had enough and are now fighting back. We're perfectly happy to let you worship who or what you want, we just want it out of the government. If you guys can do that then there is no problem:)
Steve,
WHAT!?!? There is NO historical evidence for Jesus beside his name being mentioned in some Roman papers. That's it. Your own bible give 2 different birth stories, and I'm supposed to take that as fact? But even if he did exist. HE WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN BORN IN DECEMBER. That's a fact all scholars agree on. You guys STOLE someone else's holiday to try to convert them! LOL!
You Christians run the fricken country. When you're in charge you are under the microscope so you get the most criticism. And after the way GW has fucked things up I think it's deserved. We speak out and IMMEDIATELY you get all cry baby, and scream persicution. It's not persicution when you have 80% of the population Yet buy forcing your god on us, making us follow YOUR moral code when we have a perfectly good one called laws you are persicuting US! If you guys would stop meddling in government then nobody would say anything about you guys at all. If you would just worship in your churches and homes instead of trying to do it so everyone can see how 'holy' you are, there would be no problems.
How would YOU feel if you were told the only thing that can be shown is giant turd because the Turdians out number everyone else in the country so you must only see their holiday scenes and everyone else's holidays must take a back seat to there's in every government building. Wouldn't you prefer that everyone be allowed to worship as they see fit in there churches and homes? You have to remember that there are 3 other holidays of other religions around the same time. So do you want their religion forced on you? Your religion has so taken over your life that you can't and refuse to try to see what others see and might be offended by.
No one is saying to get rid of the holiday, just stop trying to force your SPECIFIC holiday on others.
Best,
Brett
ANd just to drive home the non existance of the persicution complex you love to talk about read this:
http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/2008/12/huckabees_fake_persecution_com.php#more
Funny how someone with more rights than I have can even dare to play the martyr.
Best,
Brett
Brett,
You're pretty smart, after examining the historical evidence for Jesus do you really have any doubt that he existed? What other possible explanation would there be for a religion based off of his teachings to have sprung up? Are you suggesting the early martyrs made up a new religion and then chose to die horrible deaths defending what they made up? Or do you view any recorded account of Christians as also suspect? At what period in time do you start to trust the recorded historical records?
You may want to check out a book called "What Americans Really Believe." It is a secular book which offers data on hundreds of regular church goers and asks them what they really believe. I was shocked, but you may be pleasantly surprised. Apparently less than half of those attending church are actually Christians-as in believing the Bible, accepting Jesus as Lord, and so on. I think we live in a country where a lot of people go to church but a very small percentage base their lives off of what Christ taught. No one can flip through the TV channels and watch the news or watch a sitcom and come to the conclusion that Christians are the dominating force shaping this country.
Christmas is the celebration of Christ's birth. The actual day of his birth is unknown for sure, but I tend to think if God created time then any day is a fitting day for a holiday.
If you are interested in the historical reason you can check out:
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ch/news/2000/dec08.html
Our town square through out the year has signs up for various sports teams and sporting events. I don't care for organized sports. I don't see the benefit and I think many times they do more harm than good. But I don't feel persecuted, and I don't really mind the displays. I know it means a lot to some people, but to me it is a waste of time and energy. Still I don't feel like raining on their parade and tell them I think they are wrong. They aren't forcing their views on me. I realize I share my world with others who view differently than I do I choose to be tolerant of those I disagree with.
Steve
Steve
Yes Steve I DO question the existence of Jesus. From what I have read not one of the great Jewish leaders of the time heard of him, it was only after his supposed death that anyone of any note seems to have heard of him...hmmmmm. As
I guess people couldn't have made stuff up after his supposed death and then said this is what I was told seeing as how all the New Testament stuff was written 70 plus years after the supposed crucifixtion. It's all way to fishy... no pun intended;)
As for the Historical evidence, well nothing syncs with the bible until David. But just because he existed doesn't make the rest of it true. I can argue that since the first part is all myth then the whole thing is false. Some of it does match with some Historical evidence, but it's just places, and a few Kings.
Christmas was originally called Yule by the Pagan, Christmas wasn't even celebrated by most Christians until the middle of 1800's.
As for sports at your town square, I don't recall anywhere in the constitution about a separation of Sport and State. It's completely different. And I agree with you, it's a waste of time. I think sports should all be pick up games amoungst friends. I think they should be banned from school (not really PE since some kids do need this, especially today!)
Best,
Brett
Christmas in in December because Emperor Constantine decreed it so. Constantine was a brilliant politician and a pagan but he decided to merge the pagan and Christian festivals and basically set the stage for the Holy Roman Church. He summoned the Council of Nicaea and basically decided which books went into the Bible and which became apocripha. He was also behind that Nicaean "We believe in one god" creed thing.
Did he do this because he was enlightened by God or because it allowed him to exert much better control over his subjects and got them to cooperate with each other?
Hmmm.
Personally, I applaud the Alliance for putting up signs against any religion. That's really all it is, it isn't a sign against Christianity, it's against all forms of religion. It's for free-thinking and open-mindedness.
The way I saw the uproar was, "well, now you know what it's like getting inundated with Merry Christmas, Jesus is the reason for the season, etc" that drives all atheists crazy.
Jesus wasn't born on a day called Christmas. And if God wanted a holiday for JEsus, you think it'd have something to do with Jewish holidays since, sorry to say it, Jesus was a Jew.
Think about this:
What if Jesus was real? You know NOTHING of Jesus until he comes onto the scene at 30 years old, right (or around there). What if this group of people (starting to call themselves Christians) wanted to start a religion to gain freedom from the Jewish rulers and took this little boy and brainwashed him into thinking he was the messiah? Or, even farther than that, what if this Jesus was a con-man from Egypt pretending to be the Messiah for money?
Either way, it ends badly and he's killed. But, rather than let this new religion die when it was just catching on, they go in, get the body, and bury him somewhere, meanwhile dressing some random guy up as Jesus and saying, "HE IS RISEN!" Many of the places in the Bible that talk about Jesus' return he didn't even visit. And the people he talked to openly admitted to not knowing who Jesus was when he talked to them.
Now...how rude was that?! THAT was an attack on Christianity. I TRIED to hurt your feelings. This sign...didn't try to do that. It said there is no God, no devil, no heaven nor hell. HOw many religions believe in a god, devil, heaven or hell?
I say stop taking things so personally when it's against the general thought of religion. I have the ability to live my life free from religion. Can't you live your life having religion and leaving me alone? Even on the holidays?
(And yes, to be a complete hypocrite though it's not really my fault, I do take off Christmas - but only because my whole office isn't there).
*grumble*
From everyone without religion, I say this:
"Knock it off and chill out."
-Erin
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