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It sometimes can be hard to know where good natured ribbing ends and outright ugly ridiculing begins. One of the signs of a tolerant person is you disagree without being mean or set out with the purpose only to upset certain folks.
Jesus wasn’t above using harsh words or even biting humor, sometimes he was downright offensive to folks. I think Jesus did do a pretty good job of showing us that if you do use harsh words, if you do have to offend, it should be in the context of teaching. It never is just mean spirited ridiculing, but you should make every attempt to also temper humor with an extended hand of love and acceptance.
Isn’t it amazing to think Jesus spent his whole life being ridiculed, rejected, mistreated, and misunderstood? Even his closest disciples seldom got the point. It wasn’t until after his resurrection we even see much in the way of genuine faith and acceptance in Jesus’ work or ministry.
Is this song funny? I guess from my view, once you start singing and trying to be cutesy and clever it seems closer to juvenile name calling than actually simply not agreeing with someone’s religious views. It is the sort of thing that bothers me in politics about folks like Rush Limbaugh, even if sometimes I agree with him on a particular point, do I want to be found mocking those I disagree with?
The good thing about a song like this is sometimes it takes someone behaving badly to help you understand why a particular action is ugly and helps you steer clear of yourself stepping over that line and making the same mistake.
It makes you wonder why everyone from name-calling-children to spoofy-song-adults act so poorly. And then there is that sick twisted enjoyment of a sick heart at causing the pain and discomfort of another that we all can fall into. With sin so prevalent, no wonder we needed Jesus to come as a Savior.
So yes, thank you Brett for helping to showcase the need for Jesus and why at Christmas believers and pagans both can in their own way testify to the good and perfect plan of God.
I didn't comment on this one for a reason. But I will tell you this was pulled from a British X-mas because the producers felt it would offend the right wingers and the Christians.
What you got out of it was the exact opposite of what I did but you see Jesus were I see the natural world so to each there own.
Just curious Steve, is a humorous correlation between someone Tim and a multitude of others consider to be a fictional character and zombies,vampires,lizards etc. Ugly ridicule simply because you happen to hold that character sacred? Or is their actually a more substantial reason? And who's to say Tim isn't teaching? He appears to be teaching people how funny it really is to build your whole life around believing in a fairytale.
I'm really just wondering why Christians are free to spread garbage that I find truly offensive, but Tim Minchin making a dead on,humorous observation is childish and ugly ridicule.
How exactly is he behaving badly?
What really blows my mind though is that you sat through a video you found very offensive, just so you could have a "teaching" moment. That's like someone "forcing" themselves to sit through a porno so they can "preach" on the evils of masturbation. I just don't get it
Do you think Jesus was a fictional character? Most people believe he was real since he appears prevalently in history. Most usually disagree with who Jesus was and what he did. I disagree with Buddhism, though parts of it fascinate me; I don’t really feel the need to ignore the fact Siddhartha Gautama by all accounts was an actual historical figure.
Once you move from I don’t believe Jesus was the Messiah to I don’t think he actually existed at all, there is little room for honest discussion because your anti-religion bias has trumped historical facts, ancient writings and any sort of physical proof which in all other non-Jesus cases is acceptable. It is along the lines of a holocaust denier, reason becomes impotent because disdain has distorted thinking.
So, what is bothersome is this song at its core is a mock praise song. This is why it is offensive. Praising God is important to Christians, it is one of their sacred interactions with God; to twist it into a mockery poking fun at the perceived goofiness of God is ugly.
I try not to go out of my way to piss on other’s sacred beliefs. In China when I went into Buddhist temples I did not bow to the statues, or rub their bellies, or light candles, but I did remove my shoes to not be disrespectful in the same way I removed my shoes in many people’s homes as a sign of respect. I try to be respectful without condoning false religious beliefs and I do not go out of my way to mock or jest at their expense.
I don’t believe in the Muslim faith, but I don’t lay down a prayer cloth and start doing funny calisthenics in front of Muslims to mock their afternoon and evening prayers. That isn’t trying to lovingly reach out to them. It would communicate, you are a buffoon for doing what you do, look how stupid you are for believing as you do. I am so far above your stupid understanding that I can stare down at your simpleton beliefs. That would be wrong and ugly behavior.
It is sort of what is going on now with the mockery of Tim Tebow. Here is a guy with a genuine faith and love of God. People don’t understand him so they ridicule him for being different. Doing the kneeling prayer thing in front of him to mock him.
Now, let’s be straight, there are those even who call themselves Christians who occasionally cross this line, this should (and when I’m paying attention) offend me. I hope I don’t do it, but I am quite capable of failure, and when I do I should be convicted to stop and ask for forgiveness from those I’ve offended.
Is Tim teaching or mocking? Good natured ribbing or offensive talk when it is done out of love, I care enough for you, that I don’t want to ridicule you but I want to jar you enough that you take a fresh look at what you are doing. So if you see Jesus’ method in the Bible it was usually teaching, or a miracle to draw folks in. Some would misunderstand or ridicule, then the wrong action or misunderstanding would be addressed, and more teaching; you were wrong here-this is what right looks like-if you want to change try this.
Also Christ was selective, he didn’t carpet bomb. Pharisees, the religious prudes, the self-righteous, and the proud received surgical strikes on their egos from Christ. He did not try to offend everyone.
This song comes across as a big middle finger delivered with a smile to all people of the Christian faith; I can’t laugh along with him because he is laughing at me.
Again as in my previous post, this really is out of place for tolerant or caring person; it is much closer in line with how the Bible describes people to act when they are distant from him. So the song is saying you Christians are stupid for loving Christ, but at the same time the singer is proving John 15:18 to be accurate:
“If the world hates you, you know that it has hated me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own. But because you are not of the world, since I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.”
Maybe a simpler way to state why this song bothers me is I view this song much like the famous Alexamenos graffito drawing.
"Alexamenos worships [his] God"
I see why it was pulled. To be honest, it is not that great a song. I mean, he has done far better, and I have laughed at far better songs that are far more caustic, such as that one you posted a while ago 'What would Jesus do?' by Axis of Awesome.
Far funnier, far less afraid to offend. And it got broadcast on TV.
I just think this song was trying too hard. And it is a problem I have with all of Tim Minchin's material. Tries too hard.
Folks like Hicks and Carlin could mock/ attack religion far better, and funnier. Guys like Steven Lynch have an uncanny knack to do the same, and be funny. As does Daniel Tosh.
And guys like Rowan Atkinson and his 'Welcome to hell'or Jesus the Entertainer sketch.
I just wish this was funnier. Scratch that, I just wish this was funny.
What I find offensive was that they pulled the entire appearance of Tim Minchin. Not just the song. It is one thing to pull a song, it is another to pull an entire promotional piece for an entertainer.
Nothing showed up:(
M.O.R. and Steve to certain extent:)
While you might not have found it funny, I did. Not everyone finds the same thing funny. it's like art, one mans trash is another mans treasure. I found the song catchy and fun. Now did you not like it because it pokes fun at your Jesus or because you just didn't like it? Can you even tell the difference?
For a quicky song he wrote for the special, I liked it. Not quite a funny as some Steven Lynch stuff (I need a greatest hits collection from him!) but still pushed the right buttons for me.
Now, now Brett, please don't get hostile. I can tell when something is offensive to me because of a person or people I like, and when something is offensive to me because of my beliefs. I always get irritated when I hear people mispronounce God's and mythological creature's names wrong. Like when they get Hercules and Heracles wrong.
I'm not attached to Jesus at all, just did not find it funny. The people I defend are those who care about me and me about them. My family, friends and so forth. They are invaluable to me. Whether alive or passed, those people I will defend if they are mocked, or satirised. As would any one with a sane frame of mind.
When the Axis of Awesome sang a song mocking JEsus, THAT was funny.
Ditto for Minchin's Pope Disco.
And as I stated previously, what I found offensive about Johnathan Ross show was that they not only pulled the song, but Minchin's entire appearance on the show. That, to me, is completely offensive as he gave his time to appear on the the show, yes, I will admit, in return for a promotion, but then they cut his entire appearance, not just the song. Every clip he appeared in was edited out, and the only time he appeared was, literally, a brief glimpse of his shoulder. Minchin was shoved to make room for that annoying jerk Tom Cruise. I know who I consider saner, and it ain't Cruise. It is one thing, personally, to find a song offensive, but to cut the entire appearance by Minchin was idiotic.
In short, the reason I am not laughing is because I found it genuinely not funny.
I didn't say anything hostile. Just an observation. The religious get offended easily and may not even know why. I'm not sure if I've seen his Pope song but I thought this was funny and cute. The whole Schrodinger's feline bit got me laughing.
I'm not offended by it getting pulled. The Streisand effect is getting this out to the whole world:)
Sorry Brett, but I took the 'Do you know the difference?'to be hostile. Looking back, and then looking at my response, the words may have two meanings, and you meant one and I took the opposite meaning.
As for the Pope song. I think you posted it once, and that is where I saw it. But if not, then here is the link again.
Something can be funny and offensive. Humor is a form of delivery, not a value call. Something can be funny and wrong to laugh at. Laughing at another people group because you believe their beliefs make them inferior to you is always wrong. It is always wrong to have offending some folks as your ultimate goal. I guess it is what gets called now “hate-speech” though it is seldom uniformly applied, certain groups should never ever be suffered the “injustice” of being offended by someone else’s beliefs, while other folks it is okay to mock and ridicule without any concern about a public backlash.
Plus Tim has deliberately chosen to mock using a worship song style. I imagine for a non-Christian this crucial fact doesn’t even register. Worship is sort of a vague superstitious activity to them, where as it is a holy, intimate, sacred act to a believer. Again, I don’t go out of my way to piss on others religions even if I don’t agree with them.
Sorry the Alexamenos graffito link didn’t work, I think Google links to it if you search. It is one of the more famous early examples of a secular non-religious source which supports the historical view of Jesus and his followers. It is basically a man mocking the Christians for worshipping a man who was crucified. It is famous enough that I think it is one of those things most people who have ever invested a couple hours to researching religious beliefs come across quite early. Considering how often and intently you look into the historical validity for Christianity you should recognize it quite quickly. The name is probably throwing you, I know the image, but the name is a hard one to remember.
I think Brett you know me well enough to know if anything I have an overactive sense of humor. Christians do a lot of stupid stupid stuff. We have to be able to laugh at ourselves. If it is good natured ribbing, we have to be humble enough to own up to our idiosyncrasies. Anyone who can’t laugh at themselves is going to be a stick in the mud.
I did post that! I prefer this new one actually. And I was seriously asking a question. Lots of people get offended at art but never know why. I don't really have a horse in this rase. I was just amused by the song.:)
Well, hate speech is one thing, it attempts to provoke a strong responce that people will act upon. This is just a silly song comparing Jesus to other mythical things. You see this as an attack on your religion and it is... but it's an attack that pokes fun of the crazy stuff you believe, not a person or even a group. Its to show you that while you think it's original, all the stuff about Jesus and all other religions is just recycling other religions and ideas over and over again.
And since when did the Christians have dibs on any certain style of song? If that's the case then I say they can't do Rock anymore, And those pesky Country singers can either!
That image with the horse head? What has that got to do with this?
I agree if you can't laugh at yourself you're a stick in the mud. But for most religious people there beliefs are off limits. I don't agree with that. If you push something as the 'truth' you better be able to back it up or you will be mocked.
Hope you are enjoying the holidays.
Any holiday is a good one, especially with a day off.
Yeah, I understnad now that you were just asking a question, but I wrongly read it as 'Are you too stupid to understand the difference?' rather than your intended meaning. You were being genuinely sincere, as in 'Maybe you do not understand the difference'.
I completely agree that religion, and non-belief, should be completely open to mocking. One of the reasons I have grown to dislike Family Guy is because it now feels it has free reign to mock anything more popular than itself, or it gets incredibly preachy (as does American Dad0 about certain issues, such as homosexuality, religion, Atheism, or abortion. Yet in doing so, it does not include comedy in that equation. OR it claims to be marketing one story, then pulls a switcheroo and goes in the oppossite direction. It also supplies false historical information, not for comedic purposes, just pushing an agenda.
Dara O'Brian, an Irish comedian who happens to be atheist, has said the reason he does not tell jokes about Muslims is because nobody bar a few members of the audience know a thing or two about Muslims, so his act would die.
On the other hand, an Irish writer and comedienne by the name of Sharon Horgan made a brilliant joke about Islam and Muslims on British TV, link below, that caused a bit of a hullabloo among a certain number of Muslims in the UK. No doubt they are a minority, but she has not been asked back to present the show since. Possibly cos of the joke.
And if any extremist Muslims think about attacking her, they should take note - her brother Shane is a Rugby player, who plays for the Irish Rugby team, and no doubt could get his mates to sort out anyone who threatened her.
Think about it.
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